Anoher scam when I used my Shell credit card to pay in a local Shell petrol station - in Birmingham. The card was used to pay for mobile phone top up credits (pay as you go). I definately knows the petrol station that talk the cards details and sold off to people top up their phone. Because I only use the Shell credit card to pay for Shell petrol to collect smart points. So be warn, its happening widespread. I will only use cash now.
Just one more, someone mentioned about using the small handheld device and transmit the data via Bluetooth. Apparently the data get transmitted is not encrypted, so anyone could receive and analyse the data. I don't believe CHIP & PIN, use cash if you can.
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The Americans - and later the French among others - were using Chip and Pin in the early 1990s.
It didn't work with my credit card in Florida at the time because the UK Visa operation wasn't geared up for the method.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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I still have to sign with mine - yet apparently if you ask for a 'chip and signature' card the banks deny they exist.
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The signature method still exists if you tell the bank that you're elderly or disabled.
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Makes me glad I've got a fuel card...
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I thought Chip and Pin was infallible?
Fortunately, I rarely use my card - especially not for petrol. I like seeing the cash that I'm spending so I can control it!
Having said that, I went out for a meal yesterday at quite a big place and had to sign. Dunno what all that was about.
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No system is infallible to fraud but chip and pin is better than the previous system.You just have to be very aware that fraud can happen anywhere.
My card was cloned - I suspect in a petrol station near Gatwick and my account had more than £4000 taken from it - although the credit card company did cover the losses it was a shock.
As a result I never let my card out of my sight and always shield my pin number. I will not use any cashpoint without checking that no skimming device has been placed over the machine as happened at the cashpoint at our local supermarket.
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My partner's son had his card skimmed/scammed at a garage near Luton a couple of years ago; he got his money back and a new account. The police kept running the original account for a while, to try and trace the perps. I have pretty well given up on Cashpoints, I get cashback from supermarkets when I pay my bill with a debit card and I check my statements very throughly!
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The main reason behind chip and pin was to take responsabilty off banks shoulders. Previously, if your card was cloned or stolen you could prove fraud by comparing signatures. Now you don't have any proof. Scams with fake cash machines reading strip of your card and loggin your pin are as old as idea of wall mounted cash machine itself. Thief doesn't have to be a con arist anymore and forge your signature after stealin your card, all he needs now is to be behind you in a queue before he takes your wallet. How brilliant.
Not to mention little inconviniences like chip on my halifax debit card being damaged and rendered unreadable 5 times in 6 months and effectively being refused any other form of payment.
I hate the idea of remembering all the pins to all the cards as well. I just try to order as much online as possible.
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[Nissan dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
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One of my cards was cloned recently, either in a pub or at a bank terminal, losing the card company £2300. Since then I have been very wary of using any of my cards without following the tips below:
Never let the card go out of your sight.
Check any ATM to see if the machine has anything arround the card slot (they can cover a large chunk of the machine).
Never let anyone watch you enter your PIN (shield with your free hand if possible).
Have different PIN numbers for each card.
Never write down the PIN numbers.
Never use a card if you have sufficient cash in your pocket.
Obtain cash in advance of expected purchase.
As a retailer, I also accept cards. I am surprised at the number of stories my customers tell me of the cards they have had cloned, it is becoming far more common than in the past. These include one gentleman who had over £10,000 taken out of his account, another who had 4 transactions for £5,000 each made in Paris whilst he was in Bristol.
Any card transaction that a retailer accepts with a PIN authorisation is warrantied by the card company. If the same transaction is accepted on a signature, the card company now will not carry the loss in the vent of a fraudulent transaction, so the retailer looses the value of the whole transaction. A retailer I know found this out to her cost after having a telephone authorisation for a signed transaction for £6,500 snatched back. So for those who suggest using a signed only card, be warned a retailer does not have to accept it.
--
Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
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The signature method still exists if you.......
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I two cards with chip n pin on a well known credit card.
I asked for a third card. The response was "in that case you will have to revert to chip n signature"
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I've had my card cloned twice and my father has hid done once - all at "Big name" filling stations. We all seem to know of others as this thread shows. But, I don't know anyone who has had problems after using a supermarket filling station.
Cheaper fuel, more security and ignore the poor quality issue.
PS The idiot who cloned my dad's debit card actually used his own name on an airline ticket he bought with it and so got found out!
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Might seem obvious but when entering your PIN, always shield the numbers with your spare hand, even if there is no one else about.
The large majority of shops, petrol stations, pubs etc have CCTV and it doesn't take much for a crooked retailer to have the camera focussed on the PIN keypad.
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I am not Sherlock Holmes but apart from an off licence and a bank or shop, it seems that everybody who has had card problems seems to have been using them at petrol stations. Can anybody suggest why this might be, within the sensible limits imposed on comment, by the Moderators?
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I suspect that the unsociable hours leads to a large number of casual staff. I do not think that the casual staff are the problem, but I do suspect that criminals may look to obtain jobs as casual staff to get access to the cards.
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It might be something to do with the shortage of staff wiling to have their face pushed in for low wages. In the Preston area, recent activity was, how shall I put it, a clan thing. Get job, keep brethren in funds. Organised by crime syndicates, to source the kit and the distribution of funds?
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Chip and PIN only became more or less mandatory on 14th Feb and it hasn't taken long for the criminals who would otherwise have taken a cut in wages to come up with another wheeze.
What is believed to have happened is that 'organised crime' gangs have coerced filling station managers/franchisees to use doctored card readers that skim the magnetic stripe details AND record the PIN as it is entered.
The gang can then produce a piece of plastic with a cloned magnetic stripe; because they also have the PIN they then use this in an ATM to withdraw cash. Although ATMs read the chip, they default to using the stripe if the chip read fails (which it does because the fake card has no chip). The correct PIN to go with the details is entered and cash is withdrawn.
There is really no defence against this at the moment except not to use your card or to be fairly confident that a doctored reader is not being used (e.g. a big supermarket site), keep your card in sight and make sure that no-one/no camera sees you enter your PIN.
Ironically it is only Chip and PIN that has made this scam possible, since there was no way to record the PIN previously, even though the details could be skimmed.
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Might seem obvious but when entering your PIN, always shield the numbers with your spare hand, even if there is no one else about. The large majority of shops, petrol stations, pubs etc have CCTV and it doesn't take much for a crooked retailer to have the camera focussed on the PIN keypad.
I dont think this was the case on this particular situation, its not impossible to substitute a false key pad or data log all key strokes.You would never detect this.With blue tooth keypads being used anyone within range could pick up the signals and log the keystrokes,the use of pin numbers is flawed like other methods of security
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rustbucket (the original)
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I still have to sign with mine - yet apparently if you ask for a 'chip and signature' card the banks deny they exist.
BANKS Eh! offer you an umbrella in the summer! They can all flock off as far as poss.
MD.
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I'll try again. Does anyone know of a card scam at a supermarket filling station? I have yet to hear of one.
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Dulwich Estate - the chap who used your father's cloned card to buy an airline ticket was very dim but, in fact, unless he had stolen your father's passport, and looked like him he would have had to put his own name on the ticket to get thru security ie name on ticket matching name in passport. Still dim I do agree. Re your query on filling stations I think the answer may be that, despite being Shell, Esso or whatever, the stations are run by individuals on a franchise basis and if they get squeezed in a price war they will suffer personal loss or even lose their business. In a supermarket outlet the operators have no real need to try any fiddles with the cards as they get a wage and are protected by not having a financial interest in the parent company.
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armitage shanks asked:
>>everybody who has had card problems seems to have been using >> them at petrol stations. Can anybody suggest why ....
and
dulwich estate asked:Does anyone know of a card scam at a supermarket filling station? I have yet to hear of one.
the reason that explains dulwich's observation is that supermarket and other "big company" owned stations will be tightly controlled as to the equipment and procedures. although it does not make them immune, these outlets will be less likely to fall victim to fraudsters.
the observation made by armitage shanks is true for petrol stations which are in reality run as franchises. the franchisee typically may owns a handful of outlets. the ones to watch out for in particualr are those as described in this article:
easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~sydney/funding.htm
" ***** gangs have been involved in large-scale credit card fraud schemes at gas stations in London, England. ..."
remember that the guy behind the counter is probably carrying out instructions whilst under threat for his own and family's safety.
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My Barclays Connect card and Barclaycard are Chip and Pin however Amex and Shell Visa say that they will provide C&P cards when a new card is issued, fair enough.
However where as most outlets seem to expect this re Amex and are happy for me to sign, I had a potentailly embarrasing experience with the Shell Visa card where a filling station would not accept it, of course I had 30 quids worth of their diesel in my tank though, luckily, had another card with me.
What filling station was it, a Shell one of course!
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armitage shanks:
here is another article which gives further details:
....Senior police officers from the special branch and new Scotland yard ..... have claimed that these ***** ****** terrorists are engaged in fraudulent business practices spanning from corner shop empires to petrol stations. They estimate that more than 70% of the petrol stations in the greater London area are operated directly or indirectly by the ..... "
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:: edit::
the missing link for the above quotation is
www.sinhaya.com/march_speech.html
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Scarey. You guys are really worrying me now - I honestly don't think I'll use a card in a normal filling station ever again. From now on it's probably cash anywhere or a card only at Sainsbury / Tesco.
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Dulwich Estate, my credit card was used fraudulently at a large name supermarket filling station (I buy diesel, not petrol).
The amount on my card statement was more than my card payment slip. The card company said I had to take it up with the supermarket for a refund. The overcharge was only 45p so I couldn't be bothered, but if they did this on every transaction, no wonder they make such big profits.
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You don't have to worry about the bluetooth transmission being intercepted and people picking up your PIN. The PIN number is stored in an encrypted form in the chip, and the number you enter is passed through the same encryption process and compared.
Your PIN never leaves the keypad. Cool eh?
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You don't have to worry about the bluetooth transmission being intercepted and people picking up your PIN. The PIN number is stored in an encrypted form in the chip, and the number you enter is passed through the same encryption process and compared. Your PIN never leaves the keypad. Cool eh?
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Encrypted or not the fact remains that these thiething b's managed to obtain the details of credit cards and pin numbers from the system undetected for several weeks,either by decrypting or intercepting keystrokes at the keypad.This pin number system is a joke.
--
rustbucket (the original)
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several years ago that happened to me. Incidentally it happened every time I used a certain fuel stop in Guildford. Interestingly ythe charge was always slightly more than had been displayed on the pump, but when I went back to the pump (without saying anything to the staff) to check, it had been zeroed.
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Its things like this where I am glad I have a fuel card. It was my local BP garage in Worcester where one of these incidents took place. My local paper reported that BP had sacked some staff after an investigation that closed both petrol stations down.
I know that unless I'm driving the car with the correct reg no I won't get any fuel, and obviously you can't use a fuel card to buy anything else!
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Drive Your Way - If anything can, TerraCan
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and obviously you can't use a fuel card to buy anything else!
Usually oil?
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>> and obviously you can't use a fuel card to buy anything else! Usually oil?
Not on mine you can't. Diesel or petrol only.
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coincidentally, the bbc has been running a related news item this morning on radio "fivelive", and has the item on their website too:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4941132.stm
"....Criminal gangs trading in people and fake ID are "out of control", senior police officers have told the BBC. ...
The Met's Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur added the gangs were a criminal symptom of globalisation. ....
.... Forged documents - including 1,335 fake passports and ID cards and 2,000 credit cards - were found at a house in Croydon, Surrey, ....
"By definition, the majority of these offences go either undetected or unprosecuted." ....
He said the situation was "out of control" and added that politicians, police and society needed to wake up to it.
....The unfortunate .... involved in this can't go to the police, can't go to anyone else, so two sides are oppressed in this, the people involved and the people who suffer from the trade. ..."
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I know that unless I'm driving the car with the correct reg no I won't get any fuel, and obviously you can't use a fuel card to buy anything else!
I found that one local fuel station was adding cigarettes to the 'fuel' total - ie. it appeared as fuel so could be paid by fuel card or appear as fuel on a VAT receipt. A number of my drivers were in on it.
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