Any views on the wisdom of using antifreeze undiluted?
And is hard water really bad for cooling systems or not worth worrying about?
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Just buy demineralised water at a motor factors 100% antifreeze circulate a bit slower and does conduct heat at well as water. Regards Peter
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Never go above 70:30 antifreeze:water - any higher will significantly reduce thermal capacity of the coolant. 50:50 is fine for the UK.
If using tap water then be aware that above about 70 deg. C the calcium carbonate precipitates out (leaves 'limescale' in the system). I always use demineralised water.
Also stick to the correct brand of antifeeze (i.e. MB antifreeze for MB's, Honda for a Honda etc).
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Years ago, I was 17 and thought I knew everything and put neat antifreeze in my car, thinking it would be better (no freezing and even more powerful anti-corrosion) I assumed the water was there just to make it cheaper, but the car soon ran very hot, so I had to drain 50% and refill with water.
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Thanks for the responses.
The comment about sticking to the manufacturer's brand is interesting and, to a non-expert, surprising, given that we shop around for most of the other fluids, although I do tend to heed manufacturers' recommendations. Can you eleborate a little, Aprilia?
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Certain car manufactures have had developed Antifreeze that is compatible with the metal elements of there engine/cooling systems to reduce the electro corrosive effects of mixing steel liners Aluminium Blocks and Aluminium Radiators. The wrong antifreeze can considerable shorten the life of a radiator. There have also been seceral manufactures recently completely change the base for there there antifreeze and they are not compatible so can not be mixed. Ensure with a main dealer the type which if correct for your model and age of vehicle. Regards Peter
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Its the anti-corrosion chemicals used. These basically 'passivate' the metal surfaces. A variety of chemicals can be used - mostly based on phosphates, silicats and (recently) organic acids. Obviously the vehicle manfr. checks for compatibility with all the materials used in the cooling systems (metals, plastics, rubbers). Stick with the one recommended and tested by the manfr.
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And, lo and behold, browsing the MB E-Class Owner's Bible, I find:
"Most coolants are chemically very basic with a pH range of 9.5 to 10.5; the Mercedes coolant, with its 7.0 pH is unique. A pH of 7.0 means the coolant is neutral, being neither basic nor acidic. This is an important consideration when the cooling system has plastic components. Both top and bottom radiator tanks are made of plastic and they tend to live much longer if Mercedes coolant is used."
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And, lo and behold, browsing the MB E-Class Owner's Bible, I find: "Most coolants are chemically very basic with a pH range of 9.5 to 10.5; the Mercedes coolant, with its 7.0 pH is unique. A pH of 7.0 means the coolant is neutral, being neither basic nor acidic. This is an important consideration when the cooling system has plastic components. Both top and bottom radiator tanks are made of plastic and they tend to live much longer if Mercedes coolant is used."
You might know that the Merc plastics are famous for becomming brittle if the wrong coolant is used - sometimes results in the top rad. stub snapping off..... Later ones have an internal metal reinforcement.
BTW - I don't think MB are unique in having a pH of 7.0 - I think the BMW stuff also does, and probably one or two others as well.
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I have always used water from a rain water butt for both cooling and topping up battery [not that batteries need much attention these days]. Can't get much purer chemically - and any micro-organisms rapidly succumb!
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"I have always used water from a rain water butt for both cooling and topping up battery - Can't get much purer chemically"
I don't like to think what the local rain has rinsed out of the atmosphere on the way down, especially if you live near any factory with emissions. Probably won't damage your engine, but equally probably isn't pH-neutral either.
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"I have always used water from a rain water butt for both cooling and topping up battery - Can't get much purer chemically"
Acid rain anyone?
Dust storms in Sahara?
Oxides of nitrogen from tractors?
Soot from diesels?
Not to metion methane from cows:-)
madf
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Is it possible to use bottled water from a supermarket, instead of distilled water?
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Is it possible to use bottled water from a supermarket, instead of distilled water?
Depends on the water (i.e. some has a lot of dissolved minerals in it - hence the term 'mineral water').
Distilled water from my local factor is about £2 for 5 litres - cheaper than most bottled water!
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When you but your distilled or deminerialised water taste it. Taste of nothing i.e. just water. That is what you should but in cooling systems and batteries. Rain water actually has living organism ( I had to be carefull spelling organism ) in it with a load of other rubbish. Regards Peter
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"Is it possible to use bottled water from a supermarket, instead of distilled water?"
No.
Water, unless it has been distilled or even de-ionized will contain minerals. The level and type of minerals depends on where it has come from. The label on the bottle should include some sort of chemical analysis. Anything other than H2O is no longer distilled water.
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I use BRITA filtered water for screenwash and coolant.
Take a fair few jug fulls, so you need to start collecting the day before.
There is no scale in the kettle, so I assum none in the car.
www.brita.net/uk/
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As long as the antifreeze and water mix (coolant) is to the same spec as the vehicle assembler (Normally BS6580 ?) then any make can be used.
Very few instances require different to above, but obviously stick to their right type.
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Rubbish 111 You put non pug antifreeze in a 106 and the rad corrodes thru in 2 years. Use Pug stuff and 6 to7 years no probs. Regards Peter
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111 = me?
Have used non peugeot stuff in peugeots (and others) without any problems whatsover over many years now.
Whatever make you use, always thoroughly flush system out; removes any sludge and debris that is best out of the system.
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Brita filtered water works fine.
Have also used the contents of the water tank on our condenser tumble dryer.
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111 = me?
I *think* PeterD meant to have typed !!! but didn't press the shift key before hitting the 1 key.
Either way, it would have been preferable if he had used the phrase "sorry, but I don't agree" rather than "Rubbish".
DD.
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You're right DD I did mean !!! and yes you are also right perhaps I should not have rubbished the point. However coolants are complex in composition to maintain a chemical balance in engines with hoses, different metals alumininium cast iron, Steel liners seals , head gaskets, plastics and all sorts of components. Pug do not charge over the top for there special to type coolant and the more recent models have a different one again. There is no doubt that is you want to see your rad off just but in any old jump antifreeze and it will set off a series of corrosive chemicals. As far as using water from a domestic water filter is concerned, who knows waht is in there. If you leave the water unused it goes off and smells demin/de-ironised water does not so guess which is the purer. Regards Peter
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Coolants are a mix of antifreeze and water. Choice of water alters 1 make to the other, agreed.
I think a lot of the dbate has to be taken in context of age of vehicle etc.
If talking of new vehicles I would agree use the stuff supplied by the relevant dealer even though it is not made by them and is dearer than aftermarket; but worth it for value of car etc. Not that a new vehicle should need any!
However if talking of mid age to older age vehicles that need coolant I personaaly do not see any advantage in using the vehicle ASSEMBLERS fluid unless price is good. Any vehicle over 5 years with appropriate mileage on has some corrosion/debris or sludge in its cooling system. Any dearer fluid used is not going to counter act it or cure it!
In such a case i recommend a good flush of the system; fill with antifreze to the ratio of 33-1 up to 50-1, then fill remainder of system with water of choice; ideally de inonised or de-mineralised.
I have followed this for years with hundreds of cars and have found no problems with any internal wear, radiators, hoses etc; as no doubt have thousands of garages and others all over the country and the world.
Any coolant sold by any main dealer with their badge on it is not made by them; just made to their spec. Ask them what spec the antifreeze should be to and use accordingly.
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I agree with a lot of what you have said robcars - but - this is an unusual forum, poplulated by some very deviant and anal people*. It wouldn't surprise me to find that some who post here use Mobil 1 to stop the hinges on their gardens' gates creaking!!!
Number_Cruncher
* But of course, there are also many excellent contributors who make the site worth visiting!
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33-1 up to 50-1. Than does not make sense. Usually to ration is anything i the range of 2-1 to 1-1 thats 33% and 50%. Yep older cars with cast iron block, heads and no liners where not bothered by the type of antifreeze but any mixed metal engines are. Regards Peter
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33% to 50 % agreed
The rest we will have to agree to disagree on.
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I have two garden gates, and their well lubricated hinges never creak. Mobil 1 is so versatile. Or was it Magnatec that I used last time? Or was it that tub of Duckhams, so that its green would match the moss?
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"Rubbish 111 You put non pug antifreeze in a 106 and the rad corrodes thru in 2 years. Use Pug stuff and 6 to7 years no probs. Regards Peter"
Hmm so how come I have used Halfords antifreeze in our 106 diesel ( alloy block/steel liners) since 1998 and the radiator is as new and is 13 years old?
madf
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The rainwater butt's outlet tap is six inches from the bottom, so any particles will have either sunk to the bottom or risen to the top. There's not much acid rain from the lows that sweep in from the Atlantic!
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in the old nissan 1.3 ,the service manual stated to use soft water. the cylinder heads would suffer blocked water passages,and cracked heads.so after that i used soft water filterd and boiled,and never less than 50 50 anti freeze.
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