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What I also forgot to say is get down to a diesel specialist, the main dealers know Zip about diesels really, and I'm sure a diesel service agent can sort you out as this car uses a standard bosch fuel system I think.
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I **think** (working from memory) that these 2.2D SAAB's use the Bosch VP44 pump - which is a traditional rotary Diesel pump (NOT a CR type!).
They have got a bit of a reputation for failing. I don't much about them personally, but my mate who's a Diesel expert reckons either the rotors sieze in the distributor (especially if you run out of fuel) or the joints in the ECU which sits on top of the pump will fail (due to heat and vibration) - ECU fault codes should flag this.
Anyway, my suggestion is to get your car back from SAAB and get on to a local Bosch Diesel specialist and ask for a price on a recon VP44 unit - lot less than £2k, I bet.
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Very many thanks for the helpful comments and advice so far. I will post an outcome when there is one!
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Update. A SAAB original pump is £1800, a SAAB refurb is £1500 and a refurb by Shorts of Swansea (with 1 Yr warranty) is £914. All these plus fitting, at the dealer who has the car in his workshop. If it is going to be repaired I think I can see what the source of the pump will be! Further report when a decision is made and the car is up and running again! Thanks again for the usual prompt and accurate responses from forum members.
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The failed pump has gone to a firm called Shorts, in Swansea, for a rebuild and after that my lady should be back on the road. I am hoping that they will give her an itemised bill or some explanation of what they found wrong with it.
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Out of interest, what diesel have you been using in the car ?
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Partner's car but SFAIK Sainsbury's own. I do the same with my diesel Peugeot but I regularly add Miller's diesel Plus, as reccomended by HJ. I will post a report on the pump condition when/if we get one. Car had done 70K miles.
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I only ask because it seems that any pump failures on these GM pumps are caused by using supermarket derv, i tend to only use Shell because they have more additives and lubricants also millers just to be on the safe side.
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I only ask because it seems that any pump failures on these GM pumps are caused by using supermarket derv,
That's quite a statement. Any evidence? The pumps are not GM, AFAIK, they are regular Bosch VP44 rotary. Very common pump used on lots of vehicles. Prone to the particular failures I noted further up.
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not GM, AFAIK, they are regular Bosch VP44 rotary. Very common pump used on lots of vehicles. Prone to the particular failures I noted further up.
Yes it is the Bosch VP44 injection pump (I have a 9-3 TiD also). From what I've read about this pump, they are used on loads of vehicles from the Ford Focus to 10 litre bus engines. Go to www.doctordiesel.co.uk/ , click on "pump identification".
They shut off fuel on the overrun (engine braking) so therefore no fuel equals lack of lubrication equals increased pump wear.
There were a lot of failures several years ago AFAIK (particularly in Europe) when they first introduced ULSD and didnt put enough lubricity additive in it.
I think its unfair to blame it on supermarket diesel, unless you have some evidence. I think these pumps fail anyway, regardless of fuel brand. IMO the "poor quality supermarket diesel" is a bit of an urban myth; but having said that, I also add Millers DPP myself, about every third tank of fuel.
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I only make this statement because a diesel engineer told me to use shell as they have better additives and lubricants in their derv than some other suppliers ( allegedly ) inc supermarkets, out of interest if these pumps aren't getting lubricated on the overrun why do some pumps last 200,000 mls and others go pop at 80,000 mls ?
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Surely during engine braking there must be some fuel in the pump? I think the flow of fuel through the pump is halted, but fuel pressure in the pump is maintained - otherwise they would last five minutes before grinding themselves to death.
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out of interest if these pumps aren't getting lubricated on the overrun why do some pumps last 200,000 mls and others go pop at 80,000 mls ?
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Dunno, I personally would blame basic manufacturing variability (but I'm not an expert)? Like cam belts snapping when they're not supposed to. Or am I kidding myself? There was a bloke on Saabscene with a 9-3 who had a pump failure years ago, just after he'd been testing a tuning box, so he thought there was a chance that that was to blame.
Surely during engine braking there must be some fuel in the pump? I think the flow of fuel through the pump is halted, but fuel pressure in the pump is maintained - otherwise they would last five minutes before grinding themselves to death.
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I would assume there must be some residual fuel in the pump to keep it lubricated, unless something goes wrong? I've seen a picture on a website of a metal component with some deep scoring on it, but I cant remember where I saw it. I think Bosch still make these pumps, but the link I posted above says the rotor design is on its third update.
;o)
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Well, i've got an 03 2.0dti vectra, so hopefully mines got one of the phase 3 pumps ( fingers crossed )
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Yes you might be alright with an 03 plate. When they improved the 9-3 to the 125bhp model (Oct. 2000), I've seen mention of "modified injection pump" as one of the improvements; so Vectras should have got better pumps too?
Mine is the older 115bhp model 9-3, done 110k miles, I have a tuning box fitted, I run it mainly on supermarket fuel (with Millers added), so my pump might be on its last legs!
My thoughts go out to Armitage and his partner. As far as I remember there has not been a pump failure mentioned on Saabscene (on the 9-3 forum, I dont look at the 9-5 forum)within the last 2 years I've been going on there (but there were a few before then, in Holland and Belgium). So it can't be that common can it?
Rich.
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The modified injection pump on the 125bhp version is the VP44 pump that has the ECU integrated into it. Be sure that any garage changing this pump can programme the right calibration into the ECU as well. A neat technical solution but adds to the cost if it needs replacing. This VP44 version is identifyable by the two ECU-type connectors on top of the pump. This version was also the first VP44 capable of 'pilot injection'.
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SOS, thank you for your interesting post re VP44 pumps. The car in question is Jan 1999 build so is your information relevant to our car? Is this something I should raise with the firm who are refurbing the pump and/or the main dealer who is going to fit it but has not seen many SAAB turbo diesels thru their workshop? Thanks in advance!
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The integrated ECU VP44 was only for Oct2000 onwards production. Possibly worth checking the pump is the not the ECU version but standard VP44s are much more likely to be around as a lot of companies were already moving to common rail systems by the time Bosch introduced the ECU version.
On an unrelated issue on that engine, if you get a hesitation with max acceleration, asort of go-pause-go again, the pre-Oct2000 engine was prone to getting oil on the air flow sensor which can be cleaned off by rinsing the sensor in white spirit. Bosch don't like people taking the sensor out of the housing but with the right tool it's difficult to get wrong.
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SOS. Thank you for that information. I hope to be able to post that the pump is back and on the car and that the car is running well, towards the end of next week. It has been a long drawn out process! Luckily my partner has the use of her son's car and is not inconvenienced (much) by the SAAB being off the road, for 3 weeks to date!
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SOS, was the later vp44 with pilot injection more reliable than the earlier ones?
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I have just spoken to the firm who are refurbing the pump and they confirm that it is an older type VP44, without the ECU. They say that that they can see no signs of failure that could be attributed to using low grade (supermarket) fuel and the failure was actually the 'spill valve'. I guess that will mean more to most of you than to me!
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AS - Good news about the pump. Hope the pump makes it drive like new!.
I would hope that the newer vp44 with ecu is more reliable as there's more to go wrong with a much bigger bill if it does go wrong. It's usually in companies like Bosch's best interest to make it reliable as most manufacturers get the suppliers to pay the bigger warranty repairs (but this is usually shorter than the manufacturer's warranty on the car).
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The pump is back from a firm in Swansea, fault was a spill valve failure, bill was £950. Pump was fitted at local SAAB dealer - "Road tested and satisfactory" and a bill for £450. 2 miles down the road the engine management light came on - again! It has been appearing intermittently for about a year without any apparent loss of performance. I'm thinking it might be MAF sensor but I am told that failure of this item makes the car run really, really badly! Further comments welcome! My partner has taken the car back and hasn't paid the bill - yet!
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£450 for just FITTING the pump! Blimey!
The MAF sensor being a bit crook doesn't usually put the light on - not unless its a 'hard failure' (i.e. loss of signal from MAF). And yes, a poorly MAF would lead to noticable loss of power.
The light could be anything really - its out with the diagnostic tools again I'm afraid....
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Well no it was for removing it, sending it for refurb and re-fitting it and there was some faffing about re curing the management light, which obviously hasn't worked!
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Just to close this one off, for the benefit of those who have been kind enough to follow it! Pump refurbed with a 2 year warranty by a firm in Swansea, for £900. Removed and refitted plus roadtest for £400. Eng Manag light which had been on and off for 18 months was not seen on test drive. Car returned and MAF airflow sensor, supplied at a price that I could only equal on the internet but no beat, fitted free. Car now seems to be OK and is going on a 500 mile round trip next weekend
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www.ilexa.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=bca2b7d3...5 Half an hour job?
Are you refering to the joints in the ECU? I mentioned this in my first post on the thread (fifth post down). I can't understand why manufacturers insist on putting ECU's on injection pump (well, I can, its cost saving). Lots of vibration and thermal cycling causes the joints to fail.
As regards the MAF replacement - well, a degraded MAF doesn't usally put the MIL light on. It would have to be a loss of signal (e.g. wiring break) to do that. Be interesting to know if the MIL light comes on again.....
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The same. It looks as if one person at least had some prior experience of this glitch, and successfully resolved it. Although this might well not be the fault in the Saab, wouldn't GM notify its empire of the fault via a technical bulletin? If they haven't, its partly responsible for the blunderbuss approach. Maybe the dealers prefer that of course.
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