****** Thread closed. Please see vol XXXI for further discussions. ******
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=32659
Speeding (mostly excl cameras) XXIX is closed and this thread has been started.
For the continued discussions around the subject of speeds & speeding, usually excluding cameras which are in another thread.
Older versions will not be deleted, so there is no need to repost any old stuff.
A list of previous volumes can be found here:-
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=18848
DD,
BackRoom Moderator
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No sympathy please
No 'told you so'
Just facts
Can someone point out what actually happens when one gets 12 points (4 speeding tickets) on a licence? Can one avoid a ban in any way? Can one still sit next to a teenage learner driver? Can one still drive abroad? What happens to one's insurance? How long is one banned from driving?
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So Brad your on 9 points with a speeding charge now outstanding?
Firstly you will not get the chance of a Conditional Offer because points awarded reach the magical dozen, so it is a Court appearance. 12 points is indicative to a 6 month automatic disqualification plus a fine.
But on disqualification if you can PROVE that this will lead to loss of job, house, wife etc then you can enter a case of hardship (Section 35 (4) Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988) and the Magistrates, if they believe you and letter from Boss etc, etc, then they have the discretion not to disqualify. Plea of hardship can only be used once in three years IIRC., OR
The Magistrates can be asked to deal with the latest offence under Section 34 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 and Jones v Chief Const West Mercia [2000] and disqualify - generally for up to 56 days thus leaving the 9 previous points on the Licence as a deterent.
In both these scenarios, whilst not strictly neccessary, better advocacy will come from a Solicitor with a good Traffic background.
Once disqualified then literally you are no longer the holder of a Driving Licence so you cannot supervise a Learner driver and your car Insurance becomes void during the ban (...providing the driver holds, has held, and is not disqualified from holding a DL..) You should inform your Insurance Company of any points/ban and expect a premium loading when the ban expires.
At the moment any ban imposed will only applies to UK. Moves are afoot to extend this to EU but not yet in force. Problem is as DL will be confiscated (but not on minor under 56 days ban) what do you produce to the authorities or rental firms?
DVD
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Sorry Brad failed to mention that any previous points remain on the Licence under the 3 year totting rules and on the date of the offence of the next 3 making twelve none of the previous points have dropped off the licence.?
DVD
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Can someone point out what actually happens when one gets 12 points
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You will get summonsed to Court where a Magistrate will hear the case. If you want,t hen you can be represented at Court by a solicitor (your expense) who can perhaps put forward mitigating circumstances in the hope you avoid the automatic ban.
Can one still sit next to a teenage learner driver?
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If you mean 'Supervise' then as long as you have NOT been banned (licence revoked) and your teenage learner driver has insurance, then yes. But if you have no licence then you cannot.
Can one still drive abroad?
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See above.
What happens to one's insurance?
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I guess your policy will be cancelled by your insurers since it all depends on what happens @ Court. If you get banned from driving, then you cannot drive, thus I would guess your Insurance Co. would cancel your insurance policy since a banned driver cannot have insurance.
>>How long is one banned from driving?
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Totally dependant on the sitting Magistrate and aggravating factors for the offence. If I'm not mistaken then a ban can be around 12 - 18 months or so.
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Im not plain stupid, just a special kind of stoopid.
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Well somebody was going to post it so it might as well be me.
The facts as far as I can gather are:
He was allegedly doing 90 in a 30 zone when he collided with another vehicle and then with a house.
The 'black box' was checked and found to have recorded a speed of 90 mph but was then lost whilst the case was on... and then found again after the case.
His defence claimed the 'black box' was not re-calibrated after a previous accident and so was potentially unreliable. The manufacturer said it was reliable but for soem reason said it too late for the court case.
The case collapsed.
The other car driver is being prosecuted and his case comes up next month.
No further comment...
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I think we've had all the evidence we ever need to prove 'Its one rule for them....'!
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And according to one report, after the case was dismissed, the box was found again - now there is a surprise!
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That annoys me almost as much as that Crazy Frog song.
Ring, ding a ding ding........aaarrgghhhhhhh!
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Hmmm. Well, his colleague behind said he was doing 50-60. he got caught after crashing into another motorist. If he'd done that at 90, she'd be dead.
Anti-police irritates me: I accept there are some naughty ones - the racist dealing with the Kurdish youth is a disgrace, if the recording is to be believed. However, the slightly hysterical one rule for them and another rule for us brigade just get on my wick.
O
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Jaguar XJS V12 - comes with free personalised oil tanker.
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Info here:-
snipurl.com/f61v
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And whatever the truth, the bloke from Safe Speed hits the nail on the head when he says
"Cases like this are very damaging to police-public relationships"
People will read into this what they want to.
Mores the pity
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"...doing 50-60. he got caught after crashing into another motorist. If he'd done that at 90, she'd be dead."
Oh?? Sounds a familiar tune, from another thread...
I know at least two people that have *walked* away from 90 mph+ accidents on public roads involving other vhicles. Oddly, neither is dead.
Still, enough of that for now :-)
No-one can complain that the Police are inconsistent :-)
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Perhaps he wouldnt have crashed if he had tried the car out at speed beforehand......8-)
WTM
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According to East Midlands today (26th May) all 59 police drivers caught speeding last year, in marked cars but not all with light and sirens, were justified in their actions and NO prosecutions are considered appropriate. Amazing - ALL 59 were justified in breaking the law!
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Well, I suppose if a doctor touched a patient during the course of an examination, or a dustman dropped some rubbish during the course of his duties, legal action might be appropriate.
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[yawn]
No Do$h - Alfa-driving Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
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... all 59 police drivers caught speeding last year, in marked cars but not all with light and sirens, were justified in their actions and NO prosecutions are considered appropriate.
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I know I shouldn't respond to this obvious baiting but ... you and I and everyone else don't know what duties these Drivers were engaged in. Just FYI, a Police car going to a 'shout' does NOT have to use it 'warning equipment' (note the wording). It is perfectly possible for a Police vehicle (and Ambulance and Fire for that matter) to drive through at speed WITHOUT the use of the 'warning equipment' going to/from a job.
The blues & twos are fitted as audible and vissual 'warning' equipment to alert other road users that an emergency service vehicle is approaching and that they should take action to not hinder it's progress. The lights and siren are used to WARN others and are therfore NOT required while responding.
Now, just because a Police car nips past, without its lights and sirens, doesn't automatically mean that it ISNT going to a job. Quite contrary, sometimes the 'silent approach' is the order of the day (think breaks in progress, robbery calls and burglaries) and thereby you wont see the blue lights or hear the siren - yet the car will speed past.
So 59 cars were 'spotted' driving with excess speed without their warning equipment - so what?
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Im not plain stupid, just a special kind of stoopid.
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Since when do police speed to burglaries? They give you a crime number over the phone and you get a leaflet through the post offering you counselling.
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I would like to think so most since its a Home Office priority? I attend knowing how I'd feel if it happened to my family. I just try to give the same level of service as I would like to receive myself. I know The Met and Thames Valley take them seriously...
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Im not plain stupid, just a special kind of stoopid.
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Since when do police speed to burglaries? They give you a crime number over the phone and you get a leaflet through the post offering you counselling.
Well when i was burgled last week the police were round within 30 minutes of me calling them. I've also had various people call me regarding counselling, security etc.
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...... which is ONE occurence every SIX days.
Hardly earth shattering is it.
....and yes there is valid exemption at law.
DVD
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What some of you seem to fail to realize is that the steady drip,drip of news stories and anecdotal tales of police officers disobeying the law and/or showing threatening or intimidating behaviour does have a seriously detrimental effect on the general publics' view of them. The proof is there for all to see; the police are much less respected than they were. I believe that too many officers see themselves as an elite force whose duty it is to control and lecture the public, instead they would be better advised to remember that they are in the job to uphold the law and befriend and help ordinary, law abiding citizens. They are public servants not a civilian army.
I am not talking completly through my hat because my brother was until recently a policeman with over thirty years service, and he is worried.
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Although I don't live in the UK, I am still the registered keeper of several cars there which are used, insured and taxed by family members although I own the cars and use them myself on occasional visits. I have apparently received a NIP at my UK address for a speed camera offence (36 in 30 mph) in Northamptonshire. Now, I have a good idea of who was probably driving this particular car but cannot say for certainty when I was 5,000 miles away. What is of more direct concern to me is that I cannot, given the up to 3 month delay in receiving or sending mail, respond to the 28 day aspect of this notice calling on me to say who the driver was. Having the NIP sent by courier will cost as much as any fine. Even if the culprit owns up, he or she can't fill in the form on my behalf anyway.
So my options seem to be:
a) Ignore it. This is allegedly what most of my UK neighbours do with some success.
b) Have my wife fill it in on my behalf, pointing out I cannot say 100% who was driving but it wasn't me since I was not in the UK on the day in question. Ask for a copy of the photograph to help with identification. Obviously, I can't personally sign the response.
c) Have someone fill in whatever bit is necessary and send off the £60. Points on my licence won't matter too much since I am not in the UK (although neither is the licence).
d) Have the thing sent by snail mail and reply as per (a) well after the deadline.
Any thoughts or other suggestions?
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You haven't "officially" received it yet, have you?
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Actually he officially has. Or at least can be deemed to have.
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I spent some considerable time this afternoon going through the various option from both sides and when I came to post did not save and got timed out.
Since then, on reflection, I wondered why one would be the Registered Keeper of not one but several vehicles and have an 'abroad' address. I could only come up with nefarious reasons, possibly perfectly legal, which are not compatible with what I was brought up to believe in.
For this reason I abstain.
DVD
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I'm guessing that you work abroad but are actually a UK resident? Also you say you're wife could fill it in, so presumeably she's in the UK in your house?
I think that fact that you happen to be abroad is probably irrelevant - it's up to you to make adequate arrangements to cope with such matters. Can the NIP be filled in by your solicitor? Although i wonder what are people who go on extended holidays are supposed to do?
If you ignore it then eventually a summons will be issued for failing to supply requested info. If you ignore that then at some point you'll presumeably be arrested - perhaps while you're entering or leaving the country, which might not be terribly convenient.
Even if your driving licence was in the UK, you can't send it off yet, as the NIP is only asked who was driving. Once you get the Fixed Pen offer, then you send off the licence.
What I guess would work (but is no doubt dodgy), is to get the person to own up, have someone fill in their details and sign it in your name (they're hardly likely to check the sig). The the named person will get their own NIP - as long as they own up and pay up you'll hear no more about it. The Scamera Partnerships just want their money - as long as they get it then they'll be happy.
If you travel a lot then you probably don't want a court conviction on your record - that can mean that you then ought to get a visa to visit some country's (ie USA) where you otherwise wouldn't need one.
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This raises an interesting question - for instance my parents are usually out of the UK for 2 separate periods each year, about 5 weeks each time. They leave their car at their home and either my brother or I could drive it whilst they are away. If either of us should drive it, or someone "clone" the reg plate, and a NIP be posted whilst they are away, firstly it wouldn't get opened for maybe a month after it arrived on their doormap, and secondly, maybe we wouldn't be able to rember who drove the car on a particular day. So where would we all stand then? - and there must be others in similar positions.
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Lost track of this thread when it was amalgamated. Fortunately, as a long term supporter of free speech on the internet I don't take offence at DWD's insinuations re "nefarious reasons". I would have thought, however, there are thousands of expats who do the same as me and keep cars in various countries. I bought all of my UK cars myself several years ago and it therefore seems natural that I am their "keeper". Two are classics, although only one is RFL exempt, another is a 'spare' for one of the classics and therefore forever SORN'd until I decide it is scrapped, and a fourth has been a family vehicle for several years while myself and wife periodically live abroad for one or two year stretches.
I also have a French-registered car in my name in France for my own and family/visitor use there. I can't see the problem as long as these cars meet national legal requirements (SORN used to be a problem but has sorted itself to the times when I am in the UK).
I know of one British expat, who has lived and worked overseas for at least 25 years almost without break, who has kept an E-type Jaguar for holiday use in the UK and would be highly upset if it was suggested he is no longer the 'keeper'.
An expat colleague has a car in each of Ivory Coast, France and Guadeloupe; all in her name and used by staff or family on visits. Like me, the only place she currently doesn't have a registered car is the country in which we are actually resident.
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The car is registered in your name, the NIP has been served and not answered.
Therefore the registered keeper (thats YOU btw) will be lumped with the offence, fail to appear in court and will end up with an outstanding fine and warrant.
Pushed to its logical conclusion, the car will be clamped and towed next time its seen out and about, balifs will appear at the keepers registered address for the outstanding fine and the registered keeper will be clamped and towed at his next port of entry into the UK.
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Whats the problem. Your wife replies expaning the vehicle was not driven by you and that you are out of the country and she names the individual or group of individuals that may have been driving the car. It really is not your problem but you are bound by law to inform them so they will contact the individuals and if they want yo deny the offence than fine, not your problem. DO NOT leave it any longer get your wife to reply she doesn't even need to sign the form as she is not the owner.
Regards
Peter
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Whats the problem. Your wife replies expaning the vehicle was not driven by you and that you are out of the country and she names the individual or group of individuals that may have been driving the car. It really is not your problem but you are bound by law to inform them so they will contact the individuals and if they want yo deny the offence than fine, not your problem. DO NOT leave it any longer get your wife to reply she doesn't even need to sign the form as she is not the owner.
While at first glance the above is a load of rubbish, I wonder if you are likely to get off if you supply so much (confused) information the the Camera Partnership just gives up and chucks it in the bin?
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We are all entitled to our opinion my friend even if you are wrong.
Post the problem on www.pepipoo.com and good legal advice will be forth coming. Just leav it and you will be prosecuted.
Regards Peter
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Post the problem on www.pepipoo.com and good legal advice will be forth coming. Just leav it and you will be prosecuted.
Phoning the issuer of the NIP and discussing it with them might actually help as well!
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I generally pride myself in having driven all over the place over the best part of 30 years and never having picked up a 'ticket'.
Well, last week in Germany I fell foul of a 'blitzer' (speed camera). There are a lot of them in Germany and they are not signed - in fact they often seem to be disguised. This particular camera was placed right at the start of a 50kph limit - so I caught it as I was still slowing from 70kph - probably went through at 60kph. It was painted green and set amongst some small trees at the side of the road - cunning!
The question is, what happens next? I was in a Hertz rental car so I assume Hertz will forward the ticket to me......?
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I expect you will get it in the post.I got a ticket in Germany many years ago.Whilst driving on an unrestricted autobahn i got a bit carried away and carried on flat out past a section with a 110 kph limit.Was caught by radar speed gun, and was pulled over by a very pretty police women.She didn't speak English and I didn't speak German.Still cost me £30!. live and learn.
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As you paid by credit card, I think you will get Billed on the card.
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... Plus £30 admin. charge...
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Hertz will get billed and pass the cost on to you. They allow 10% tolerance on the measured speed so if you went through at an indicated 60km/h then -6km/h is 54km/h actual measured speed, so probably a fixed penalty 15Euros assuming they charge at all. Careful here in Germany, the cameras are frequently very well hidden behind road signs, wheelie bins etc.
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Hertz will get billed and pass the cost on to you. They allow 10% tolerance on the measured speed so if you went through at an indicated 60km/h then -6km/h is 54km/h actual measured speed, so probably a fixed penalty 15Euros assuming they charge at all. Careful here in Germany, the cameras are frequently very well hidden behind road signs, wheelie bins etc.
Speedo was pretty well spot-on according to my GPS (i.e. it was a 'real' 60kph).
I've driven in Germany many times and am aware of the way speed cameras are hidden - not at all like the UK (which is actually quite 'soft' on speed, despite what some in the BR seem to think). In Germany I always stick diligently to the speed limits, as do most German drivers. On this occasion the camera was right by the 'transition' from 70kph to 50kph and I slipped up a bit. My error and I can't deny it. I'm actually more worried about the Hertz admin fee than the fine!
Incidentally, I travel in Germany quite a bit and they do seem to be dropping the speed limits. I note that the new section of the A20 Autobahn that runs from Luebeck to Wismar has a 100kph (60mph)limit for many miles. This is a very quiet stretch of road and it seems whenever they open a new piece of road the limit is set low. In general (apart from the unrestricted stretches of the Autobahns) most speed limits now seem to be lower than what they would be on equivalent roads in England.
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Bad luck, Aprilia. That's why speed cameras are so iniquitous, trapping the law-abiding motorist's brief moment of inattention.
The oik who knows exactly where the cameras are placed & doing 80mph between them gets off scot free.
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>> Bad luck, Aprilia. That's why speed cameras are so iniquitous,trapping the law-abiding motorist's brief moment of inattention.
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Agree in part, however, I'm sure they'd argue that a brief moment's inattention can be just as dangerous even though it's not deliberate.
The oik who knows exactly where the cameras are placed & doing 80mph between them gets off scot free.
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Life's iniquitous isn't it? I mean the ordinary law abiding person tends not to know all the ways by which less honest people avoid the long arm of the law, paying tax etc. IMO Speed cameras are no more unfair than anything else. What's would be unfair is a punishment which took no account of the circumstances whatsoever. So, if Aprilia gets the same punishment for what we accept was his very unfortunate momentary lapse as a serious serial offender it'll be grossly unfair.
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The question is, what happens next? I was in a Hertz rental car so I assume Hertz will forward the ticket to me......?
For me there'd be two more questions.
1. Should you declare it to your insurance company now/at renewal?
2. Would it make a difference to your premium?
Do EU motoring convictions (or any foreign country, for that matter) have any impact on your licence in the UK?
OK, that's three more questions ...
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As of now, there is no way to transfer a conviction from one country to another, but there is moves afoot to address this. The lengths government(s) will go to!
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As of now, there is no way to transfer a conviction from one country to another, but there is moves afoot to address this.
I don't know the status in Germany but note that in the UK they're penalties, not convictions. Only a court can convict you.
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At that speed over the limit I would be amazed if they would want to give you points anyway, so nothing to worry about. Should be ?30 approx.
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Surely Hertz cannot charge you? A fine for a 'criminal' offence (assuming this is a 'criminal' or at least police enforced offence in Germany) can't be transferred to a car hire company can it?
In this country if you get a speeding ticket in a hire car what happens - the hire company wouldn't pay it and charge you for it would they - they surely just pass on your details, as they would need to ascertain who was driving etc.
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I was assuming that Hertz would forward the ticket on to me and charge me an admin fee. We'll see...
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It's a fixed penalty ticket here, probably around 15 Euros and no points. If I remember correctly, Hertz will send you a copy of the Police Notice. I got one like this about 10 years ago and back then there was no admin charge, not sure about now.
Aprilia, it's interesting that you noticed the reduced speed limits on some of the renovated Autobahns. These tend to be in regions where the local Government is SPD (equivalent to Labour), so mainly in the old East Germany and in the North. The regions with CDU/CSU (Conservative) Governments still have lots of unrestricted Autobahns, mainly the Southern regions.
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Aprilia, it's interesting that you noticed the reduced speed limits on some of the renovated Autobahns. These tend to be in regions where the local Government is SPD (equivalent to Labour), so mainly in the old East Germany and in the North. The regions with CDU/CSU (Conservative) Governments still have lots of unrestricted Autobahns, mainly the Southern regions.
Possibly. But I've been to various regions in the last 20 years, mostly on business. Munich, Hamburg, Stuttgart etc. seems to me that lower speed limits are slowly creeping in all over Germany. The number of long unrestricted stretches is certainly a lot less than it used to be.
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They couldn´t restrict the Bavarian autobahns, Merc and BM owners would riot.
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I got caught exactly like this last year with Hertz in Germany. The fine and the admin fee comes to about £30 - I got stung twice - saw one of the cameras - small, green and hidden on the central reservation, seen at the last possible moment as it was on a fairly tight bend in traffic. Wasn't going that fast... The other, I didn't see at all.
No points, no record. I spoke to a German lawyer colleague, and the phrase the ticket uses is akin to a misdemeanour in the USA, rather than a felony. It's a ticking off rather than a conviction.
O
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Jaguar XJS V12 - comes with free personalised oil tanker.
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My friend has been caught by a camera at 47mph in a 30mph zone. What do you feel the damage will be?
Kick. ND
Thanks for the help
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That is considerably over the limit - got a feeling it may well involve a court appearance.
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My girlfriend got caught doing 46 in a 30 by a copper with a handheld radar detector thingy. We were in Camarthen in Wales where they are keen on catching speeders, and the guy 'let her off' with 3 points & £60 fine. He said that as she was so apologetic and was not from the area (we live in Berkshire) that he would not send her to court.
I'd imagine they'll get a summons as there is no one to take into account any mitigating factors at the time of the offence.
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I thought until these new rules came in, 25 over the limit was court?
I heard somewhere that under the new rules, 15mph over would be 6 points and therefore court.
Could be wrong though...
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Adam
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Under ACPO Guide lines providing you have less that 8 points on the Licence then there should be a Conditional Offer to pay 60 notes and receive 3 points.
Court kicks in at 50 or 9 points.
Pre election the Road Safety Bill was to graduate three penalties for 30:
Low - up to 30 mph 2 points 40 fine
Standard - 40 - 44mph 3 points 60 fine
High - 45 and above 6 points and 100 fine.
The election put the RSA on hold but now being resurrected. Bad news, I understand that they now view over the 30 limit as very dangerous so they are not to graduate. Awaiting what they dictate.
DVD
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my friend has received a NIP asking for his name and address. Does this automatically mean that he will be taken to court?
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No. He could get a conditional offer (£60 and 3 points)
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Adam
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Your friend presumably is the registered keeper of the vehicle involved. SCP take the Reg No of vehicle they flash and make an enquiry of DVLA for the Keeper. With 15days, counting the day of the offence they send out to RC (a) Notice of Intended Prosecution - to warn of impending proceedings, a requireemnt at law otherwise they have to drop it and (b) a Form sent by or on behalf of Chief Officer of Police asking the Reg Keeper to name the driver and return within 28 days. Failure to do so is an offence. Once driver has been established then a Conditional offer follows if circumstances permit.
DVD
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Man cleared of 156mph BMW charge
tinyurl.com/a9t5f
Nice to see the law on the side of the driver, even if he was as guilty as hell!
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Lucky man.This time.I thought the cops didn't need to prove who was driving.Surely the guy gets the ticket.If he was not driving then he has to say who was?
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We should get the name of that man's lawyer!
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I hope Mr Kloss is hounded to the ends of his days. He is a danger and the public need protection from him.
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RF the owner claimed not to be the driver- and the camera operator admitted that he could not identify the driver.
However, in my opinion anyone who drives at over twice the legal limit with only one hand on the wheel is an extreme danger to others, no matter where or when it may be.
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Scotplod/SCP lash up. Read the first sentence. NOIP not served.
Doomed I say, doomed from the start.
DVD
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A Scottish businessman accused of using his mobile phone while driving at 156mph was yesterday cleared due to a prosecution blunder.
Ronnie Klos, an amateur racing driver, was said to have clocked the highest speed ever recorded on roadside cameras in Fife as he drove his silver BMW with one hand on the wheel.
But Mr Klos, 37, from Fife, walked free from court yesterday after his lawyers successfully argued he was not served papers to notify him of the case. Motoring organisations said they were "disappointed" at the outcome.
The sheriff, Paul Arthurson, said that he had no choice but to discharge Mr Klos because prosecutors had failed to send out a "notice of intended prosecution".
The sheriff said he could not convict Mr Klos under an alternative charge of driving culpably and recklessly, because the Crown had failed to provide clear evidence that he had caused actual danger to other road users.
At Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court, Siobhan Monks, the depute fiscal, condemned Mr Klos's actions. "There was an utter disregard to the consequences of others," she said. "He was driving at 156mph and appeared to be using a mobile phone. In any case he only had one hand on the steering wheel."
"Identification was an issue in this case, but there were also legal issues. It is a matter for the Crown if they appeal, but I would be quite surprised in the circumstances."
Mr Klos had denied driving his BMW M3 CSL at 156mph on the A92 near Kirkcaldy, Fife, on 2 May last year, while talking on a mobile phone.
The court heard evidence from a speed camera operator that he had witnessed the businessman driving the car, and photos alleged to have been of Mr Klos behind the wheel of the car at the time of the offence were also produced in court.
Mr Klos denied he was the driver and claimed the car must have been borrowed by a friend who had been at a party he had attended.
But delivering his verdict, Mr Arthurson made it clear that he found Crown witnesses who identified Mr Klos as the driver of the car both "credible" and "reliable".
Neil Grieg, a spokesman for the AA Motoring Trust in Scotland, said: "I am very disappointed that this has happened. It helps to perpetuate the myth among some drivers that there are loopholes in the law whereas the reality is that in the vast majority of cases, people are convicted, sentenced and then fined or banned."
Mr Grieg said such a serious driving offence would often result in a prison sentence.
"I am surprised that the authorities in Fife managed to get this wrong," he said.
"This is a very serious crime and someone should have been convicted for it."
Andy Jones, spokesman for Fife Speed Camera Partnership, confirmed the speed of 156mph was the highest ever recorded in the area. "The decision was up to the sheriff at the end of the day. We are not criticising anyone," he said.
Last year, he announced that his company, which has 50 vehicles on the road, would be the first in Scotland to breath-test staff before they start work.
He said at the time: "Anyone under the influence of alcohol is a danger, not just to themselves but to colleagues, customers and other road users."
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Perhaps when he's not racing cars he's a policeman?
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Have just arrived home to find a NIP on the doormat,36 in a 30 it says.Apart from driving very carefully since my last one I am well aware of this particular camera,as you pass it you can see a 40 sign ahead but the camera is in the 30 zone.Thing is,I knew it was not right,the time was 15:11 on Sun 29th of May.I remembered going to a shop that day,checked my receipts and,sure enough,I was at a checkout 5 miles away at 15:04.Allowing for a couple of minutes to get in my car I would have average 60mph to have got to that camera.I will take it to court if they do not drop it,but what bothers me is how this has come about.Any advice on best way to deal with this is welcomed.
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You need to see the photo.
Devils advocate time
Your receipt is proof that someone was at the shop at that time. Unless it has *your* credit card details on it - it could have been anyone. If it has your details then it proves *you* were at the shop but where was *your car and its driver* at that time.
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I think that you will have problems with proving that the time on the till receipt is in fact 100% accurate.
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But equally so for those involved with the pic file as well...:-)
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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Write back outlining the problem and ask for the photo as it could be your car was cloned. If they allow you to see the photo and it is you then it is doubtful that the timing error can be used as an argument for a discrepancy on time does not automatically void the notice and they can amend any summons.
If it isn't you you are home and dried.
Note you do not mention you were not along that stretch of road either going to or from the shops that day?
DVD
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Bit of a coincidence that a 'cloned' version of your car went through a speed camera within 5 miles of you at the right time! Methinks you did it.
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Mattster
Boycott shoddy build and reliability.
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A colleague was in Las Vegas on business recently (Microsoft event). Soon after he got back there was a NIP etc. During his time away, his M3 was in the garage --- and the passport was stamped proving he was in the USA. Pretty good proof of being away. And he would prove he was at a hotel, the MS event, etc.
When he phoned up to query it, and asked about the photo, the woman tells him she couldn't really read the number plate! He then asked what colour the car in the photo was and again she wasn't sure! And she had the photo in front of here.
He had to send in photos of his car but I assume he sorted now. It's only been a few weeks though.
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Thanks for the replies.I have been to the shop and back(4.4 miles),took 15 mins in traffic,so I suppose I could have done it.What gets me is I know this camera so well as it is right where the 30 limit goes up to 40,I always take care to observe the limit.I was not aware of a flash either.Having had a look at it just now I see there is a tree hanging over the pavement in front of it and wonder if this would affect the radar.I shall ask to see their photo anyway.
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sierraman,
I don't know how well up you are on cameras but do you know if it was a truvelo or a standard gatso?
The truvelo faces you and has two circular lenses whereas the gatso is the one that everyone knows. I'm thinking that if it was a truvelo, then that may account for you not seeing any flash. (They don't)
Good luck sorting it out anyway.
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Adam
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No,it was a Gatso and the sky was overcast.I was well aware of the flash the last time and,consequently,have been driving carefully.
P.S.on my previous post,the 15 mins was for the return leg only.
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Didn't mean to sound so patronising!
I'd agree with others. Try and get a look at the pictures.
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Adam
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Definitely ask for a photo and check the reg plate for dealer name etc. As an aside, if the speed has to be accurate to within, say, 1mph, shouldn't the Police also have to get the alleged time of the incident right too? What tolerance are they allowed when making an accusation/NIP ?
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I am going to insist onseeing the pics,on my NIP there is no provision to request this so I shall send a letter.Looking on t'internet it seems NIPs vary in appearance round the country,mine is from West Yorkshire Police.Interestingly there is a box which says'I hereby certify that a copy of this document has been served by 1st class post on the date shown above',then there is a space for signature and date(not filled in).Below that'for office use only'.
Looking at it again the wording gives the immpression that if you want to challenge it,i.e.see the photos,you have to go to court,which I do not think is the case.
Thanks for your comments people.
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If you are basing the times around the till receipt have you gone back to the shop to make sure their equipment is accurate? If fairly local could save you a lot of time and effort.
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Why an NIP for doing 36 in a 30 limit? I would have thought that this only warranted a fixed penalty fine.
Not that I have had any experience of NIPs. My only speeding conviction came about because I was caught by a stationary patrol car parked on a road at right angles to the one I was on. He checked the time (with a manually operated timing device) that it took me to travel from one tree to another and then came up with an average speed to 2 places of decimals! I paid the money ~ the potential cost of challenging it wouldn't have been worth it.
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L\'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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You get an NIP for all speeding offences I thought. If I did 35mph and got caught, I'd get an NIP, 3 points and £60. If I did 120mph I'd get an NIP but obviously it'd go down the court route.
You think 35's bad, I was there when somone got an NIP for 75 - on a motorway.
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Adam
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You get an NIP for all speeding offences I thought.
Nope. Depends on how you are caught. Camera ~ NIP. Police patrol officer ~ probably just an on-the-spot fixed penalty notice unless your speed is really OTT. If you accept that you are guilty and agree to pay the fixed penalty and show the required documents at an agreed police ststion then there is no need for a prosecution. You get points on your licence, of course.
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L\'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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Ahhhh. I always thought a cop gave you a verbal NIP but what you say about accepting it makes sense. No need for one.
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Adam
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Humberside scameras say:
Can I have a copy of the photograph ?
No. the photographic / videographic evidence is to support a Police prosecution case. The photograph should not be relied upon for identification purposes of the driver. The driver may not be in full view or the photograph may be a rear shot of the vehicle. Videographic evidence is only made available at a court hearing in support of the prosecution case.
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And West Yorkshire say:
Q
Can I have a copy of the photograph?
A
Speeding is a summary offence, so the rules about ?disclosure of evidence? do not apply. However, a copy of the photograph may be obtained from West Yorkshire Police if a request is made in writing upon receiving the Notice of Intended Prosecution. You may be required to pay the costs of this service, which would be in addition to any fines imposed.
What is going on?
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It's known as 'milking the cash cow'!
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Bear with me...
Years ago our servicemen who found themselves to be Prisoners of war, had a duty to escape and / or make life difficult for their captors.
You, sierraman, should feel it your duty to evade this fine in any way possible, until it it proved that you are guilty of the offence (if that is the case).
Just as scumbags claim every possible benefit going whilst sipping lager during the day in town centres, assisted by do-gooders who should be helping the harder working members of society...
...You should make dam sure that the offence was committed and all other factors, such as the tree obscuring the camera, etc. are taken care of. Only then pay the fine and if, in the process of doing so it has taken more than £60 of the local authorities money to get that £60, you can feel satisfied.
"...I see there is a tree hanging over the pavement in front of it and wonder if this would affect the radar."
I've seen a very similar situation in N London last year on the A1 (Hamstead area) where the tree blowing in the wind
was setting the camera off.
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If you want to get ahead - get a Van!
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I'd be surprised if you missed the flash... I was flashed yesterday whilst pootling along at a legal 50mph & in my own little world (A12 near Stratford, midnight) on a very quiet road, when the car directly next to me was flashed - doing about 70 I'd guess.
A friend's car was flashed by Cambs police. He wrote back to say that his Porsche was borrowed by lots of people in the office & that it could have been anybody. Please could he have a copy of the photo to find out who it was. They duly sent a photograph of the back of the car & he got off.
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Bear with me... Years ago our servicemen who found themselves to be Prisoners of war, had a duty to escape and / or make life difficult for their captors. You, sierraman, should feel it your duty to evade this fine in any way possible, until it it proved that you are guilty of the offence (if that is the case). Just as scumbags claim every possible benefit going whilst sipping lager during the day in town centres, assisted by do-gooders who should be helping the harder working members of society... ...You should make dam sure that the offence was committed and all other factors, such as the tree obscuring the camera, etc. are taken care of. Only then pay the fine and if, in the process of doing so it has taken more than £60 of the local authorities money to get that £60, you can feel satisfied.
What an interesting analogy!
Does that apply to any law we personally do not agree with?
Does not the "local authorities money" come from "the harder working members of society"?
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This thread will be moved to the speeding thread later today.
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YES
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If you want to get ahead - get a Van!
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