Unfortunately, a few months ago, my young Niece was caught by a Red Traffic Light Camera going through a red light. Apparently the time of the photograph is six seconds after the lights turned to Red. She is 20 years old.
I myself just expected nothing to happen, if, hopefully, the camera didn't have any film left, or she would receive the usual NIP with the offer of a fixed penalty 3 points plus a 3 point licence endorsement.
No such luck, unfortunately!
She has been trying to pay it as a fixed penalty offence, without any success, and now it transpires that the Police aren't prepared to offer the fixed penalty system for this offence and wish it to be taken further, presumably to court.
Can they do this, and, if so, do they have to give their reasons why?
Whilst in no way am I defensive of her actions (she only just missed hitting another emerging vehicle, so I understand) she was, at the time, driving to an Essex hospital to visit her beloved Grandfather, who she had been informed shortly before had been admitted with a very serious chest infection, which he subsequently died from shortly after this offence was committed.
I have to have some sympathy for her. I think she has suffered enough already.
Also, she is a recently qualified driver who, so I understand, can only take 3 points on her licence because at 6 points, as opposed to 12 points, they will take her licence away.
I have already suggested that she seek appropriate legal advice, but I just thought I would post this query on the BR to see what thoughts and ideas members had on this situation. I really wish we could put the clock back, but we can't.
If it does go to court do you think she would be better off mentioning to them about her Grandfathers situation or would she do better to keep quiet? There is, of course, always the chance that she could futher incriminate herself, e.g. admitting to driving without due care, or worse.
Does anyone else have experience of a similar camera situation, and could they possibly tell me what was the outcome?
Many thanks in advance.
Galaxy
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Jumping a red light by 6 seconds is over 250 feet travelled. I can see why a fixed penalty wasn't offered, I think. Mentioning why she was in a hurry might help mitigate the sentence but I think a conviction is inevitable. Other backroomers, of a legal background, will doubtless suggest whether she is better off appearing unrepresentd and being very contrite or having the same position put to the court by a legal representative.
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You say she only just missed hitting another emergency vehicle, which presumably would have been caught on camera or reported by the driver.
I can't really see anything less than six points on this occassion. Six seconds is an awful long time for a light to be on red. I don't know how the courts will view her worry over her grandfathers illness, but she is lucky not to be on dangerous driving charge.
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I was wondering... if one of your close relatives was in hospital, "on the brink", as it were, would you go hell for leather to try to be at their bedside?
I'm not talking really dangerous driving (like crossing red lights) but ignoring speed cameras and getting a fair move on along the motorway?
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I'm surprised that your niece was still in the cameras range after 6 seconds
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Jesse, I was not intending to be unsympathetic to Galaxy's niece in the state of mind she was in at the time. But if one of your family was killed by someone who ran a red light which had been on for six seconds I do not think you would accept that visiting a sick relative, however serious, was a valid excuse on behalf of the other driver.
As for being in range, the camera will activate at the time the car crosses the line, not when the light turns red.
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The police always have discretion on whether or not to offer a FPN to drivers who have committed ticketable offences. Most times, a ticket will be issued, however on other occasions, if the Officer beleives it is so serious, then the Officer will 'report' the driver at the time and a summons be sent through the post. Remember also, that the Police can only 'offer' for the matter to be dealt with by means of a ticket, but the driver to whom it is offered can refuse and request the matter be heard at Court.
Then there are times when it isn't possible to offer a ticket for example under the 'totting up rules' - which absically says that if a driver has points on their licence and by adding the points for this ifnringement, it would take them to equal to or over the automatic banning threshold, then it must be a summons.
As you point out, your niece is a 'new' driver - but you don't make it clear if she alreayd has three (3) points on her licence? If this is the case, then if the Police were to offer her a ticket, then under the totting up rules, it would make her points tally equal to the automatic banning threshold - so they can only issue a summons.
If on the otherhand, she doesn't have any points, then I'd wager that because she overshot by such a huge margin, the Police are looking to prosecute for a higher offence which can be by means of a summons. if she was upset, then she should not have been driving IMHO because in such a state, she cannot be concentrating properly.
If she were to mention the 'mitigating circumstances' a Magistrate might take a dim view of it all in that she got into her car knowing that she was in such a state that she could not drive properly and safely. And this would be backed up by the evidence that she overshot a red light by a clear six(6) seconds and almost hit another car - but in any event, if she is going to go to Court, then you might well invest in some proper legal advice and professional representation for the Court Hearing.
I'd be very surprised if she doesn't get banned.
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Im not plain stupid, just a special kind of stoopid.
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I'd be very surprised if she doesn't get banned.
Don't forget that the six-points-and-you're-out rule for new drivers doesn't amount to a ban from driving. It takes the driver back to learner status, with a provisional licence and the need to re-take the test.
I'm surprised that this driver wasn't offered a fixed penalty and three points.
I was in a similar position last year. It was simple incompetence mitigated by being lost, at an unfamilar (and weirdly marked) junction in the wrong lane, in the dark and rain, after seven hours' driving. I didn't realise I'd gone through a red light until I saw the flash. Arguably, being capable of such a mistake is no less dangerous than driving recklessly so I won't attempt to defend myself any more than that.
The procedure was identical to that for a speed camera: offer of three points and a £60 fine as an alternative to court. I only felt aggrieved because to see the evidence I would have to apply in person, which would have meant a 700 mile round trip. This was followed by 10 months of camera paranoia and avoiding too many unfamiliar roads until my two years had ended.
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Its all a shame I know but;
The picture may show the other emerging vehicle she nearly hit, she was timed at 6 seconds after the light changed. The police have therefore declined to offer her a fixed penalty notice for a lower offence , and I would think they are going for a charge of dangerous driving (6 seconds more or less takes it beyond careless).
Given they are probably going to push for Dangerous, given this can carry severe penalties and she is looking at an automatic ban I would start thinking about employing a solicitor.
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Galaxy,
I think you need to insist that she goes to a solicitor.
6 seconds is a very long time. Count it and see. That's mroe than pushing you're luck that's going over a red light that you probably didn't even see go red. Its going to be a tough one - sizable fine, a number of points, and perhaps offences which are more than the normal TS stuff.
I wouldn't have a clue how or whether or not to play the symnpathy angle. A solicitor would.
Not meaning to rub salt in, but she really shouldn't be surprised. This isn't a marginal offence. Imagine how people would have felt if she hadn't missed the emerging vehicle and had put someone else in hospital
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I have some sympathy for her but she could have killed or crippled another motorist or motor cyclist and I don't think it is acceptable to say that she was in a hurry due to an ill relative. Looking on the bright side, it is for her own good that she learns not to drive when upset.
I had to learn the hard way that it is dangerous to drive when emotionally unbalanced.
Last Summer my mother became seriously ill and was taken to hospital. When I visited her I was so extremely shocked at her condition and the poor treatment by the staff (in the opinion of other patients). Not long after leaving the hospital I had a minor accident when I reversed into a car in a car park. No injuries, but a dented panel or two. My mind was not on the road and I reckon that I was a menace to other drivers. I really do think that driving organisations should highlight the dangers of driving when emotionally wound up, and that it is as dangerous as being intoxicated.
Leif
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Near where I live, in Stanwick, Northants, there are road works, with traffic lights. When your light changes to green you have to wait until all the red light jumpers are clear before you can move. This is not unusual. Certainly more than six seconds. You never see a policeman when you'd like to.
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You never see a policeman when you'd like to.
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Yeah tell me about it ;)
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Im not plain stupid, just a special kind of stoopid.
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Near where I live, in Stanwick, Northants, there are road works, with traffic lights. When your light changes to green you have to wait until all the red light jumpers are clear before you can move. This is not unusual. Certainly more than six seconds. You never see a policeman when you'd like to.
Red light jumpers or incompetent set up by NCC's road contractors? Resurfacing the road thru this village they set up two way temp lights. Traffic joining from side roads just had to tag on the back of the stream.
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Thank you everyone for your valued replies.
The situation appears to be very much as I had previously thought.
She will certainly be going to see a solicitor.
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Just came through Stanwick about an hour ago. One very late red light jumper, gave me a load of abuse after I tried to drive off with a green light, from the Raunds end of the roadworks. Same thing happened to son-in-law yesterday.
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oldpostie, if this is happening with such regularity have you asked the roadworks contractor to check the set up of the lights?
There should be a phone number displayed on a board at each set of temporary lights.
They should have a period on each phase where the signals at both ends are on red, this period is determined by the length of single carriageway working between the lights and should give all vehicles that have crossed a green time to exit before the other signals turn green. If this delay has been set wrong then the drivers coming against you may well have crossed a green but your light has turned green before they have sufficient time to drive through. In other words the lights are giving double green and not double red.
This would explain the abuse because it would appear to the driver coming the other way that you are trying to jump the red as he is happy that he passed a green!
Cockle
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I have resurected this post because the matter recently went to court.
Solicitors advice was to say as little as possible during the hearing, with the aim to be in and out in as short a time as possible. My niece was charged with a Traffic Light Offence, not Driving Without Due Care, or Dangerous Driving. She pleaded guilty, not much point of doing otherwise, really.
She was fined £60 with 3 penalty points, and £35 costs. Apart from the £35 costs, she could have been given the remainder of the penalty via the fixed penalty system. Makes you wonder why it ever went to court.
She is relatively pleased with the outcome of the hearing.
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Well thats a bit of a result.
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