1) Yes.
2) don't know
shut-off valve - no, although life will be a lot easier if you put a shut off valve one side and a temperature valve on the other which can be locked irrespective of temperature in case you ever wish to remove a single radiator without draining the whole system.
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I think the thing that you are not allowed to have is a solid pipe (which has an outlet that is lower than the normal level of the water in the cistern) attached to the outlet of the ballcock. "Silent" ballcocks have an optional restrictor in the inlet and a nylon mesh bag on the outlet.
--
L\'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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Thanks, both. Is there any problem with putting an old-fashioned radiator onto a modern system? You know, the sort of chunky radiator that gave us chilblains at school when we warmed our frosted fingers on them, that are normally attached to old-fashioned convection-based (?) rather than modern pumped systems, which had 4(?) inch diameter piping.
So what are the likely issues? And am I better off sticking to 15mm feed pipe, using an ordinary 1/2 inch standard valve and a suitable bush (1/2 to 3/4 - or whatever it takes), or should I have a 22mm feed pipe and then a 3/4 inch valve?
Thanks, as ever.
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I think it rather depends what you mean by "old-fashioned".
If you mean the style, then no issue. If you mean the design, probably no issue. And if you mean the quality/condition, then ptentially an issue.
My house has something around 38 radiators in total. About half of those are the big heavy old radiators which you could stand on - they're called hospital radiators - of these about half are the original cast iron ones and about half look exactly the same but are not cast iron and are new. The other half of the radiators are modern slimline radiators.
It was a balancing "challenge" - and I meand challenge !!, but otherwise there was no issue.
I don't see why there would be, presuming that the radiator is in good order and not gummed up, and that there is a connection solution for the differing pipesizes and threads.
I couldn't answer the pipe/valve size issue more specfically than to say that you should be worrying about balancing. Balancing is a function of flow rate, temperature loss/radiation, and ambient conditions - it ain't easy at the best of times, and differing pipes, valves and radiators are not going to simplify things.
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As always - Mark has it right. Your big hospital radiator is going to cause all sorts of flow issues to the system.
Assuming you manage to get all the right fittings to plumb it in, and assuming its the only one in the system, I would bleed it then shut the lock valve right down then open it a tad. Check the heat output (and therefore flow) of the other rads. Go back to your biggie and open it a bit more - go back check the other rads, keep doing this till you have the balance of good flow throught the normal rads and sufficient output from the biggie, if you go too far you can back it down to the last known good setting.
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THe easiest way to balance differing radiators with different capabilities and flows is by measuring the temperature drop between entering and exiting the radiator. You should then be comparing that drop size.
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1. Traditional WC cistern overflow, not required.
?Do regs now require a shut-off valve either side of a radiator??
No, water outlets (taps, showers, etc..) should have servicing valves; I think they are a requirement under the Water Bylaws, but it?s good practice to fit them. They?re not required in heating systems and just introduce another component that may fail or leak.
Re balancing see the recommended procedure at;
www.diyfaq.org.uk/plumbing/rad-balance.html
Personally, I think this is too pedantic for most houses. Most domestic 3-bed semi type properties can be adequately balanced by tweaking down the lock-shield valves on the radiators that heat up fastest. The aim is to increase their hydraulic resistance and thereby divert more flow to the least favoured rads, which heat up more slowly. Houses with 38 radiators probably would require a more painstaking approach.
Search the archives at the UK-DIY forum
groups-beta.google.com/group/uk.d-i-y
for previous discussions about silenced float valves. The immersed solid fill tubes are verboten, I think the ones offered now have a plastic hose that would collapse under negative pressure and stop back-siphonage.
I'd pipe the cast-iron rad in 15mm copper with 1/2" lock-shield and TRV, assuming it's the usual 2-pipe system. You'd only have to go to 22mm pipe & 3/4" valves if it's huge. The rad will have a low hydraulic resistance so you need to screw the lock-shield valve down a lot, to make the resistance & flow comparable to the pressed steel rads.
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As already stated a raditor is the same whether its cast iron or pressed steel. Its the surface area which counts and this is simply the total surface area.
Two main types. Hospital which is the solid sections and Classic which is the fancy fluted type which must be a devil to paint.
Biggest job is getting the fixings to the wall as they are very heavy although some have feet which make it easy.
Slower to heat up but obviously longer to cool down.
Without seeing your system its difficult to comment on your connections but assuming you have a two pipe pumped system which is the common method. This can be identified by seeing the two connections from your rad feeding back into separate pipes.
A one pipe pumped system uses the same pipe to feed back into which means that only the pipework is pumped and the radiator is actually working by gravity.
Sounds odd but if you think about its obvious as the circ pump doesnt have a path through the rad.
If its two pipe it will work however you do it but I would by choice use threaded valves and then convert to copper by an adaptor. Mainly for asthetic reasons and also they are much stronger. Check your rad for blockages with an hosepipe and perhaps even use some hot water poured in to check each section is clear and gets warm. Sounds Heath Robinson but it is just possible to have a couple of sections blocked.
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Have never heard of an integral overflows available in this country as you describe but have seen them abroad.
The regs yeas ago used to state "overflows should be placed in an area of nuisance" Obviously so that the property owner would have to get it fixed and avoiding wastage of water.
At one time before privatisation Water Board officials would knock on your door telling you to get it fixed.
They also used to do a night survey with listening gear to listen for running water on their supply lines to property.
Regarding silent flow ballvalves. Brass ballvalves used to have a very fine thread to take a silencer pipe but were banned at least 20 years ago. There must be no possibilty of siphonage taking place.
I,ve never heard of valves being a requirement either side of a radiator as it can be isolated by its own rad valves.
Its always a good idea though to fit a few screwdriver operated valves on a heating system to isolate sections for when you have to drain down for any reason with a draincock placed in strategic positions.
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Alvin, Integral overflows are now the most common...just fitted a w.c. with push button dual flush and integral overflow all in one central unit mounted in the cistern.
As for quiet filling, try a fluid master...wincoming water for the cistern passes a mesh filter then a valve andthen flows back to the base of a vertical tube where the water enters the cistern below water level. A float which slides vertically on a runner moves up with water level and closes the valve.
StarGazer
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alvinStargazer. Interesting that they are now common practice and prompted me to drag out my Severn Trent bylaws dated (and I just love this old prose) The COMMON SEAL OF THE SEVERN TRENT WATER AUTHORITY was hereunto affixed in the presence of: I C Sinclair Authority Secretary and Solicitor. Dated 13th day of March one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven.
"warning pipe" means an overflow pipe so fixed so that its outlet whether inside or outside the building is in a conspicuous position where the discharge of water can be readily seen"
So if these bylaws are the ones in force today I suppose the integral ones are an acceptable way of doing it.
Oh dear..times change...
alvin
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I'm glad to say that 'old fashioned' does not mean wrecked, any more than 'bangernomics' means that your car is about to break down around the next corner :)
Thanks, all, for the informative advice (as usual). Particularly valuable was pointing out the different hydraulic resistance, thanks, afm, I thought there'd be an issue, if not an insoluble problem. It sounds as though a big cast iron radiator is ideal (they seem to have a huge btu/hr rating compared to modern rads), as the room is an extension with lots of outside walls and never gets properly warm, even with the lockshield right open. With my dozen or so rads in a mid-terrace house I don't think that the balancing act will be too difficult.
So far as 'warning pipes' go, my newish combi boiler turned out to have its overflow fed straight into the wall(!). As the house predates cavity walls, thank heaven that it never came into use before I discovered it! The plumber's recommendation was to divert the overflow so that it landed on the kitchen terracotta floor, which would be perfect. He said the idea of an overflow pipe is that its overflowing should irritate you enough to make you want to do something about it.
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WOA there mappy
"It sounds as though a big cast iron radiator is ideal (they seem to have a huge btu/hr rating compared to modern"
Far from it. I assumed it was for style reasons. A modern pressed steel double radiator with fins and convector plates will throw out a huge amount more BTU's than the equivalent sized old cast iron thing.
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Twin convector Radiator 600mm high, 1.2 metres long 7,5000 btus
Old hospital radiators about 180 btus per flute
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Mapmaker,
The overflow for a cistern or header tank must be visible to act as a warning, this is simply nuisance value of dripping water as your plumber says. BUT there are two types of overflow from a modern boiler, a safety release which can release water (could be hot) in the case of high pressure. As above this should be an unusual situation....but see earlier in the thread by OAP.
The second type of overflow from a modern condensing boiler is a condensate drain which must be connected to drain somewhere safe, this is a mildly acidic liquid and should not be allowed to drip on the floor. The condensate drain with be active almost all the time and not only when an unusual fault occurs.
btw, using old /second hand radiators, salvage yards usually pressure test them. If you are connecting to a modern pressurized primary system it is worth checking them upto at least 3 bar.
StarGazer
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Alvin, Integral overflows are now the most common...just fitted a w.c. with push button dual flush and integral overflow all in one central unit mounted in the cistern.
Another device is available, that I fitted in a flat some years ago, which takes the conventional overflow into the soil pipe behind the pan. It is a valve made of transparent plastic so you can see any water passing through it. Obviously a hole has to be drilled in the soil pipe to fit it but it avoids all the problems of drilling another hole in the wall.
I was delighted to find the device as the flat had the pipe going into the soil pipe BUT no valve and the pipe was not sealed. Prior to my efforts the bathroom was affected every time any toilet attached to the same stack was used.
It was a flat rented to students and I guess none had ever complained to the landlady.
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