I would have thought that an independent engineers report was a worthwhile investment before any further remedial action is attempted (with or without your knowledge).
At least you then have some evidence to go to law.
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pmh (was peter)
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Peter,
I disagree.
Purbs does say that the garage has already established that the car was not welded together correctly - what more evididence could one need?
In my opinion, and indeed in my experience, any further repairs/reports/discussion will just draw the process out and should be avoided.
The car is plainly sus-standard, and purbs would be at a considerable disadvantage when he tries to sell it on the secondhand market, should he unwisely hang onto it.
CF
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Structural integrity? It might just be trim etc, but I'd want to know, now! A new variation on the flexi-bus. DfT/Vehicle inspectorate might be interested: whisper those words to VAG. But, if the combined efforts of VAG and the dealer don't put it right, there might very well be a need for an independent examination and report, which won't be cheap.
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DfT/Vehicle inspectorate might be interested: whisper those words to VAG.
That's a very good idea, although suggest the OP needs to be careful how he puts it (ie not an out and out threat).
Both the rear springs broke on my wife's (out of warranty) Clio for no apparent reason and the dealer and Renault at first said tough luck. I was suspicious of a problem when by chance I found the dealer had 9 in stock. I suggested to Renault that it might be quite expensive for them to recall every Clio and replace its rear springs - 15 mins later the dealer rang back and asked when could I bring the car in :-)
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Thanks for all the advice so far - keep it coming!
What is the role of the DfT/Vehicle inspectorate and how do I get in touch with them?
I'm hoping that common sense wins the day and SEAT/the dealership see sense and share the cost of a replacement. If they did, I really would consider buying further SEAT/VW etc cars in the future as I know I have just been very unlucky and otherwise really like the car.
RP
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This link gives the Vehicle Inspectorate scope: www.rmd.dft.gov.uk/project.asp?intProjectID=10800 I came across these people during investigation of incidents on-road and on-site. As you can see they also deal with the recall programme.
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The inspection was today. After dropping my car off at 9 am, I waited until 4pm before calling them. I was simply told "there's nothing wrong with it" - the inspector from SEAT and relevant Arnold Clark staff had already left.
I picked up the car and asked if anyone knew any more details. Apparently the quality of the (retrospective) welding was OK and that is what they inspected, not the integrity of the car as a whole as requested/promised.
I drove my car back to work (here until 10 tonight), rattling all the way...
SEAT UK will receive a letter early next week.
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Purbs,
My commiserations - that's not the result you wanted.
Good luck with SEAT UK, but remember, you have no contract with them, it's the shop [garage] where you bought the product who you will have to take action against, should it come to that.
My own experiences, in a similar situation, was that my dealings with VW head office were a complete waste of time, and just gave me more aggro, but when I got a tame solicitor to point out to the garage the consequences of it selling faulty goods, the results were quick and 'advantageous' [as the lawyer put it].
One further point - check you household insurance, you may have 'Family Legal Cover' [I did] and that gives you free access to a solictor, a very useful and valuable service.
I moved from a fruitless [and endless] exchange of long letters with VW to one concise and menacing [in a legal sense] missive from the solictor to the garage and got an 85% refund after having had the car 16 months.
CF
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If you do reject the vehicle make sure that you do it to the letter of the law (not sure what this is sorry).
I'm sure that you have to do certain things like document the reason for rejection, hand back the car and keys to the garage and do it within six months of purchase, for example.
You may find something on HJs site to help you.
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I received a letter today from SEAT UK regarding the inspection:
"I was sorry to learn of the concerns you have encountered with your vehicle, and would like to apologise profusely for the inconvenience caused.
In an effort to resolve this situation to your satisfaction, the SEAT Aftersale Manager for the Liverpool area was asked to inspect and monitor the rectification work carried out upon your vehicle by the SEAT approved dealership, Arnold Clark. The Aftersales manager has been in contact with us and has confirmed that he is confident the recent repairs have returned the vehicle back to manufacturer's standards.
Once again, I would like to offer my apologies for this whole unfortunate situation, but I trust our actions have proved to you in some way our commitment to you as a valued SEAT customer..."
The car is still rattling.
From what the service staff told me the chap just eyeballed the welding and said it looked OK.
What now? I'm tempted to send a copy of this thread to SEAT/the dealership along with the email from Honest John advising that I reject the vehicle.
:-(
RP
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"a valued SEAT customer" - oh yeah? Not now and I bet never in the future. Dreadful story and you have my sympathy.
It won't do much good but it may help to assuage your anger, but how about a "Mr Angry" letter telling SEAT that you will be writing to your solicitor/CAB/trading standards for advice and will also send letters/e-mails to every TV complaints/motoring programme(Watchdog/TopGear etc), every motoring magazine (Autoexpress has a "Watchdog" section), every motoring website(Top Gear "duffers" or whatever) etc that you can find addresses/links to and that you hope it costs them some sales. If only one person is persuaded not to buy a SEAT as a result it will have cost them more than if they had replaced your car and gained a satisfied customer who might then have publicised the fact that SEAT were wonderful. Also send copies to Managing Directors of SEAT in UK and Spain(?), VAG in UK, Spain, Germany etc and what's more, if you don't get a satisfactory reply from one of the latter you will publish their replies in as many places as possible.
I always find that writing such a letter makes me feel better and I have sometimes got a result (eg £250 "for inconvenience caused" from a credit card company.
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P.S. Cannon Fodder above makes a good point about legal representation/advice
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I'd suggest first step is to establish what is rattling, what was done, whether its appropriate for the road vehicle and the longer-term implications for the car, including its rust resistance.
Without knowing the qualifications of the "aftersales manager" to verify welding its a little difficult to comment, but I'm surprised that SEAT didn't send along a technical rep to look at this. As the rattles seem to continue, have the "repairs" been effective?
Looks like you'll need to get an independent engineer to assess. Otherwise there are no facts, and Seat could just prevaricate, no matter how many letters are sent.
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I have sent them another letter and contacted the garage and both seem rather disinterested. It feels as if they are trying to call my bluff re rejecting the car.
The fact is that I have verbal (from the garage) and written (from SEAT UK) evidence that panels were not welded from new and that repairs had to be made to "return the vehicle back to manufacturer's standards".
Rejection it is, then. Wish me luck.
RP
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Good luck!! Hope you succeed.
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How can the vehicle have been "returned to the manufacturer's standards" when it hadn't been there in the first place? The fact that they "mended" it acknowledges the defect which was present on delivery.
I doubt that anybody who was told the history of the car, and that it had been "returned to the manufacturer's standards" would buy it other than at a big discount - so any argument that it is as good as new is clearly wrong. Do they expect you to deceive the buyer when you sell it? Go for them, please, and good luck.
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Get a solicitor, now. Don't fool around with threats about the DTI/Watchdog/Top Gear or any of that. They will not take such threats seriously, and will dismiss you as a crank.
Get a lawyer to help you reject the car properly, and to write to the garage threatening a court case for the return of the purchase price, legal costs, court fees and interest, unless the matter can be settled swiftly. Then be prepared to do a reasonable deal, and listen carefully to what the solicitor has to say about the costs of taking a court case. It is well worth a few hundred quid.
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OK. After 2 months the garage are now talking about a replacement car.
I got a phone call from the manager today who asked me if I'd consider a replacement car and, if so, whether it had to be exactly the same model, colour etc.
How far do you think I can realistically go with this? I want a new replacement (even if it means paying a few quid for depreciation) because if anything were to go wrong with it I could again point to the manufacturing process. However, the 2.0 Sport model that I have is no longer available and the closest model in terms of spec, performance and (important for me aged 24) insurance group is the 1.9 diesel FR, which has an OTR price of ~£1200 more than the model it would be replacing.
Obviously there will need to be some negotiations here, but I don't want to be left with an unwanted 2nd-hand car.
Your suggestions are, as always, greatly appreciated.
RP
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Rule 1 of negotiations: Be realistic - there is a story of a man and a retail chain. The retail chain wanted to extend it's car park, which meant that they needed to acquire and demolish a row of houses. All the owners were offered a very fair value (market value plus a premium), all accepted but one. He decided that he needed a very substantial premium. He now has a house surrounded on three sides by a car park.
Apparently the retail chain no longer wish to acquire his house at the now substantially reduced market value.
Rule 2: Be realistic. - I would really like an exact replacement, same model, colour and mileage, but I realise that that might be difficult. However I like the look of this model, I can buy it from x or y at this price. Maybe we can come to an arrangement?
Rule 3: Be realistic - etc etc
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OK. We have come to an agreement.
I am getting the same model, in the same colour pre-registered with delivery mileage and a 54 plate. I'll contribute £400 to the dealer and SEAT UK £500.
SEAT UK have come out of this relatively well, but I'm gutted that Arnold Clark managed to source this replacement model from one of their garages in Scotland - I was very close to an excellent deal on a new Ibiza 1.9 TDI FR!
I would have been pretty happy with this outcome 2 months ago, but remain a little bitter at the time it has taken and at the fact that Arnold Clark are still hinting that, in their opinion, there is nothing wrong with the car (so why offer me this one!).
Would anyone be interested in a delivery-mileage SEAT Ibiza 2.0 Sport in black magic metallic for £9500 with full warranty and 3-years' servicing?
Thanks for your help,
RP
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A fair result I think Purbs, well done.
You may have got a better deal if you's actually taken them to Court but these things can have an effect on ones health.
Chalk It down to experience I guess.
Welcome to the ranks of disgruntled VAG owners, past and present.
CF
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