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The figures I saw recently in the Times Higher suggested someone graduating this year would on average earn around £400,000 more than a non-graduate over their lifetime at today's figures. I'd say that's worth it. However, if the students I meet are any indication of national attitudes to education, it's un-British of me to say that higher earnings were not the main reason why I went to university (in the 1980s); nor would they be if I was doing it again right now. In my experience British students are far more bothered and anxious about their earning potential than others, possibly because our degrees are so intensive and specialized (Americans don't specialize until graduate school).
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"Unless it's for a specific career demanding a degree I'm not at all sure it's worth it for my kids and others like them any more."
Although I don't qualify as "young" any more, I totally agree.
The 'university of life' is far more appropriate for many occupations - good example being that you can always spot the teachers who have gone from school to uni and straight back to school. They have a most unrealistic approach to many aspects of life.
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I agree too.
Through force of circumstance (the opportunity to live abroad), I gave up my chance of going to university. Little did I know it at the time, but in my chosen career of production management which evolved to working in the ERP software industry, I have never regretted this decision.
Along with admitted good fortune, the University of Life has thus far (20 years on) well equipped me for such a career, and I have unfortunately (truly this is not a boast, I mean unfortunately) left for dead an incredibly gifted friend (with a brain the size of a planet) who went to university and chose a similar career path, but who lacks some essential real world abilities.
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Guess where I've been studying in the (almost) twenty years since I did my degree ;-) But as I said earlier today in another context: the plural of anecdote is not data.
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Unless it\'s for a specific career demanding a degree I\'m not at all sure it\'s worth it for my kids
agreed. you need to factor in loss of income over 3 or 4 years, and the annuity that would buy; and compare that with the debt you will build up at uni and the repayments that will cost.
apparently (see link below) - \"A third of 2003 graduates \'not in work\' Polly Curtis Tuesday August 10, 2004 \"
to help your son decide, ask him to have a look at
education.guardian.co.uk/students/graduation/story...l
and
snipurl.com/9ac3
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Do I still qualify as YOUNG, given that I turn practically middle aged next week (24!! :( )
If your son and daughter know what they want to do, then I'd fully advocate doing a degree in it(e.g. teaching, medicine, marketing, Law etc, where you can get a degree in the career you want). But if they're just going to do something really broad like flippin Business Studies (leads to flippin burgers), and don't really know what they want to do with it, then it will more than likely be a waste of money, especially as they'll (you'll!) be paying about three times as much as I did to do my degree. All that does is prove that you can study at a certain level, not that you will be any good at a particular job. The exceptions to this are probably journalism (where a degree in a specialist subject like politic and NOT Journalism sets you apart from the hundreds of media graduates) and secondary teaching (where you do a PGCE after graduation).
I got a job when I finished school, worked out what I wanted to do with my life through a series of different jobs, and then went to uni. People I know who graduated at the same time as me but are two or three years younger and have just broken free of over 15 years of continuous edication just seem a bit unworldly to me, and I'm not sure university has done them any good at all. They still don't know what they want to do with their lives, and they have a lot of debt now too!
Certainly I'd advise doing a degree at some point in your life as so many jobs ask for it or require you to be "graduate calibre" as you progress in your career... but I don't think doing it when you're 18 is necessarily the best idea.
Apologies for going on a bit :)
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DE,
"Certainly I'd advise doing a degree at some point in your life as so many jobs ask for it or require you to be "graduate calibre" as you progress in your career... but I don't think doing it when you're 18 is necessarily the best idea."
Excellent point made by PG. I'm an "oldy" so you can disregard me if you wish but so much depends upon your children. It's virtually impossible to advise because only they (and you as long as you are not trying to live your life through them!) can decide what is best. Yes, let them go to University if they want to, but if they would be happier learning a good trade (and there are plenty of those around which will give them an excellent standard of living) let them do that. There is nothing worse than going to Uni for three or more years and doing something they don't want to do, ending up with a degree they don't need and many thousands of pounds debt - or dropping out with a large debt. Much better to get a job, learn a trade, earn some money and then (maybe)decide to do a degree. They will appreciate Uni more, will have learnt from the Uni of life and will be doing something they really want to do rather than what others want them to do. As for which is the best Uni - simple answer is that it's the one which will accept you! Swansea is a fantastic place (had friends there, visited many times,) Leeds is brilliant- so my kids tell me, went to unfashionable poly myself - had a wonderful time, had friends at Sheffield, Aberdeen, Manchester, York, Durham, Loughborough, London and Cambridge - all thought they were the best Unis but my brother thought Leicester the best and my sister Hull - take your choice!!
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Excellent post by PhilW.
I would say that a motivated skilled tradesman can earn more than an average graduate.
Whether they build up more wealth over a lifetime depends on what they do with the money. Early investment (and risk-taking) in business / shares / property / skill learning is more significant than graduate / non-graduate.
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>I would say that a motivated skilled tradesman can earn more than an average graduate
Yes, a given individual without a degree can earn more than the average graduate. But the average individual without a degree generally doesn't. Here are some figures from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics showing average projected lifetime earnings (2001 figures):
High School Dropout $630,000
High School Graduate $994,080
Some College $1,269,850
4 Year College Degree $1,667,700
5 or More Years of College $1,936,930
Here's a British study from the Institute of Fiscal Studies. Now this was a survey of 33 year-olds in 1991 and things have changed a bit. But I doubt they've changed that much (the US figures suggest not):
www.ifs.org.uk/education/summaryhigher.shtml
Quote:
"...men with non-degree higher education qualifications had hourly wages on average 15 per cent higher than those with just A levels; men with first degrees had hourly wages on average 21 per cent higher; and men with higher degrees had, on average, 16 per cent higher wages than those who could have gone on to higher education but did not.
...
The impact of higher education on women?s wages was found to be considerably larger than its impact on men?s wages. Women with non-degree higher education qualifications had hourly wages on average 26 per cent higher than those with just A levels; women with first degrees had hourly wages on average 39 per cent higher; and women with higher degrees had, on average, 43 per cent higher wages than this base group.
...
There are few important wage differences between those taking different subjects at higher education level."
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Horses for courses I say.
My son got the advice.
1. Do a subject that you think you will enjoy.
2. Get a reasonable degree, if possible from a good UNI and come out with a good list of contacts.
3. There are hordes of nerds out there but what employers want is people who can communicate.
He had no gap year but was well on the way to getting the well paid job he is now in during the FIRST year.
His degree subject, which he thoroughly enjoyed, was not really relevant to the job he is in.
I certainly agree with the unworldly bit. Many cannot even shake hands properly.
My children had travelled a lot with us and had been involved in many activities before and during UNI.
Good interpersonal skills courses can help. I have been on some very interesting ones.
We spent a lot of time visiting UNIs, with ours, two years early so we could revisit if required.
It was a good exercise as my daughter did not like one UNI and the thought of choosing it on paper and her being there for 6 years makes me shudder.
I appreciate that not all families or students can afford the cost or time to do the visits. I did find that some of the data on UNIs was suspect. I feel very fortunate how things have turned out especially as we both did not go to UNI.
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"We spent a lot of time visiting UNIs, with ours, two years early so we could revisit if required."
Excellent point - wish I had remembered to mention it!! We did same - go and have a good nose round - take your kids, (why do I keep calling them kids? -young adults?) let them go through the formal bits then go and have a wander round yourself and a pint in the Union bar and find out what it's really like!!!
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Its horses for courses.
Helicopter Jr did both a degree in History and an MPhil at Cambridge. He paid for the Masters himself and has joined one of the big four accountants at an excellent salary as a graduate trainee and will be studying for another three years from when the sky is the limit of his projected earnings .
He did History because he liked it and went to Cambridge because he wanted to get the best education he could. We did not push him at any time but assisted as far as possible financially when it became obvious from an early age that he was gifted in the brain department.
His cousin went to the local comprehensive and left school at 16 with little in the way of paper qualifications but an interest in woodwork. He now runs his own very successful carpentry and buling company and makes a very good living.
Me? - 5 'O' levels ( but I a'int doing too bad.)Sometimes you need to get experience in life to do a job and as an employer I rate experience higher than paper qualifications.
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Plenty of posts in line with my thinking.
But, I'm surprised about the "unwordly" bit. I somehow presumed that an 18-year old living away from home managing to survive without Mum & Dad providing every need in an instant; food, drink, lifts by car, provision of loo paper just when you really need it etc., etc. might just make them a bit more equipped for life than the one who stayed at home.
Also, what about the contacts and friends for life?
I'm a little surprised too about the emphasis on the financial benefits - surely not the only reason for going?
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I went to university. Why? Because I could, and I wanted to.
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I chose to do a Chemistry degree because I enjoyed it at A Level. By the end of the 2nd year I hated it, but I stuck with it and got a good degree. Then went on to do a Masters in Engineering Physics, and once that was done I started running a Thai restaurant.
I have just left that to go to Thailand for a month before starting work for Club Med at one of their resorts.
What has this got to do with anything? Well, uni gave me more than an education. I gave me the chance to get out from under the wing and learn what was expected of ME from life - when I was out there on my own.
In my view, the education part is very important (obviously!) but it must be stressed that it is important to make the most of the social side of it. I lived with one guy who studied 7 days a week from 8am till 11pm, got a First Class degree but then couldn't get a job as he had nothing more to offer.
I turn 25 in 2 weeks (maybe this Club Med thing is a mid-mid life crisis!) but I feel that I've achieved a lot since leaving uni, and not once have I regretted going even though I know i'll never do anythig with Chemistry!
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While I disagree with the current government's 50% target for getting students into higher education from an academic standards viewpoint, I support it wholeheartedly for the civilizing influence, and social skills it can give to students, and thence to the population in general.
number_cruncher
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>While I disagree with the current government's 50% target for getting students into higher education from an academic standards viewpoint...
Quite agree. But the opportunity should be there--fewer than than seven percent went twenty years ago and there were only places for that many. University is a great experience and I really feel those who don't get to go are missing out. Having said that it's a different experience from what it was two decades ago. My friends and I would have been horrified at the idea of our parents turning up at an open day or interview. I'm told by academics I know that these days you have to be quite forceful to get some of them not to sit in on interviews and answer the questions.
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In my view, the education part is very important (obviously!) but it must be stressed that it is important to make the most of the social side of it. I lived with one guy who studied 7 days a week from 8am till 11pm, got a First Class degree but then couldn't get a job as he had nothing more to offer.
Spot on.
After the first two years med students who stay the course all pass except for the odd case. But it is a slog and no real chance of a job during the last 3 years.
The cost is frightening especially in London.
I consider it was good use for my funds to support my daughter.
My son said I am aiming for a 2/1 as I want a life. No problems for me in that.He had a excellent time. Some of them got firsts and are still not settled in a job.
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We recruit a lot of graduates (100 odd a year), so here is some unfair generalisations from me;
We want people who have a life, not just an education
We want people with common sense and problem solving ability
Frequently people with a first do not have a life or common sense
Your degree tells me what you can do, which is by definition finite. I am much more interested in how you manage something you don\'t know how to do
I\'m not fussed which university you went to
I\'m not fussed what degree you got unless its one of the silly subjects, which would be a negative
Subject of degree is only important for engineering type roles
a gap year back packing is old hat and unimpressive. A gap year working, on the other hand, is impressive. Especially if it was something alien to your degree. e.g. I have a great programmer who spent a year as a mechanic. I can\'t say it improved his programming, but his problem solving skills and practical approach are impressive.
And for all students in an interview, God gave you two ears and one mouth - there was probably a good reason for that. If you\'re going to speak, think first.
Understand that I\'m not impressed with academia per se. The application of learning is what I\'m worried about it.
The most important thing you can conceivably learn at university is how to learn
...................and I am buying your ability to learn and your willingness to use it.
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Well I left Luton VIth form in '79 with ABC grades at A level, decided to take a gap year, got a job....and I'm still doing it*.
I don't regret not going to Uni from an academic point of view, but did regret missing the social side for a long time.
Having conducted many interviews overthe years for junior engineering / project management positions I'm always more interested in problem solving skills & time management than the candiidate's ability to pass exams.
* I do get paid about 20 times as much now, though.....Spam.
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Mark, that is the most accurate definition of the employer's persepctive I've ever read. A copy for my personnel department and a copy for every one of my friends' teenage children!
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I'll second that Duchess - my daughter (just starting A levels) now has Mark's words in her mailbox...
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A good list DD but.
No use unless they can communicate at the right level and have a work ethic. Being a team player helps.
For decades I worked for a blue chip co that insisted in recruiting graduates as programmers. Few were good communicators. Most thought the world owed them a living.
Lots of them wanted the glamour without the graft.
The co missed out on a lot of good internal people who could be trained as programmers.
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>For decades I worked for a blue chip co that insisted in recruiting graduates as programmers ... Lots of them wanted the glamour without the graft
And yet Google only recruits PhDs at that sort of level.
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As I wrote above, I work in the ERP software devlopment industry, and whilst my employer does indeed tout round universities looking for suitable graduates, greater emphasis is placed on specific human qualities and doing well at an extremely good aptitude test than having a top notch qualification. After all, our tool chest is largely unique, so a lot has to be taught from the ground up anyway. In fact, we have far more non-graduates than graduates throughout the company, including as developers.
The test is amazing. I was sceptical at first, but then plucked up the the courage and risked reputation by doing it myself. I had nothing to worry about in the end, and the result was me to a Tee. Same result for everyone else I know who has taken it.
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A good list DD but.
It's not my list.
::Points finger towards one of the other moderators::
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>> A good list DD but. It's not my list. ::Points finger towards one of the other moderators::
>>
Thanks.
RTFM or something like it.
Read first, and check your answer?
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Not "young" either but I side with henry k and frostbite.
For goodness sake park your degree then go out and get some real world experience. The degree per se doesn't give you anything useful to most HR managers without being backed up by something you can DO.
30 years in HR, designed and ran recruitment, training, development for two global majors whose names you would recognise at once, across 3 continents.
Graduate trainee sourcing in na Caucasion environment usually produced a preponderance of pompous little pimples who somehow thought a degree had a value in commerce other than that of actually studying successfully for it and was an instant door opener. My programmes always started these guys off at the coal face, night shifts chucking boxes around at the airport, sweeping up afterwards, that sort of stuff. 50% failure rate not uncommon. I remember one exasperated supervisor who had worked his way up the ranks by graft and determination coming up to me and asking me boss why do we hire kids who want a job but don't want to do any work. These schemes can be deleterious to organisational morale, to develop henry's point, and you get a "crown prince syndrome" if these people are not bloodied in combat at grass roots level to earn the respect of their less well-educated, less opinionated, and more experienced peers.
But by far the worst were the MBA's. Too many over-educated prats who would mouth off about discounted cash flow or something in front of 20 year business veterans as though they had the subject nailed. If ever there was an over-valued qualification, I would nominate for starters the MBA from some Arizona university where the populace are about as familiar with the real world as I am with Serbo-Croat verbs in the subjunctive. You practically had to take these kids back 5 years and dismantle all their preconceptions then teach them how things are done on this planet, not theirs. I'd rather put the money into a few stars out there on the line and send them to night school.
Certainly part of my remit was to refresh the organisation with intellectual resources for succession planning and the future. But I used to spend a lot of my timne telling these chappies why I wouldn't give them a job and to go out and get their hands dirty at the sharp end of some business or other then re-apply.
By far and away the Asian graduates (from all countries over there, and especially the women) were sharp as tacks and soaked up knowledge like sponges. They were a delight to work with and had none of this hubris non sense. The continental Europeans (surprise surprise) produced more prima donnas than Sadlers Wells.
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Growler.That sounds oh so familiar!
I had a reputation for breaking /not approving software.
I simply pressed the wrong buttons and the software fell over.
You should not press those buttons came the reply.
Well then will you ensure the world will not make mistakes?
Re MBA. There does seem to be some decent MBAs available but to attend the student needs experience of the coal face and then they can bring something practical to the course. All the rest of the MBAs are theory based and are suspect.
Conversely a strap line I like but I do not know where it came from. Management, at its risk, ignores the guy doing the job.
I agree about the work ethic of Asian people I have worked with but I found they would not easily think outside the box, to use that expression. Some of it was caused by the pecking order in their company.
Happy days!
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I've read all of the above comments and I must say I agree with most, if not all of them.
You have people in my class who, (especially in the new year that's just started) you try to be nice too either because you've never met them before, or they have no friends in the new group. (Fortunately, I'm in mostly the same group). They're just rude. They always do the work but that's all they do. It sounds crazy but they musn't have a life.
Don't get me wrong, you should study - but there's a fine line between doing the work and becoming a hermit.
On a more general note...Uni. I just found myself here to be honest. Sounds crazy. Out of 200 Sixth Formers, 2 never went to Uni. That figure was probably the other way around 10 years ago. In 10 years time, everyone will have a degree and those who don't will be left behind. Is this not going to devalue what a degree is worth? Very philosophical for a Sunday I know.
Before you ask what I want to do when I leave Uni, I want to join the police. Yes. Laugh. I found it amusing too.
--
Adam
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I don't think an interest in joining the police is laughable at all. It will give you invaluable skills in understanding and dealing with people in particular and the human condition in general (which would interest me were I a potential recruiter should you decide to move into commerce later on)not to mention on your part an abiding cynicism and a deep understanding of what constitutes "activity" vs "results" and "motion" vs. "progress". New Labour being a marvellous case of study for both, along with a few other gov'ts.
My gripe with Uni's/Business colleges was and still is, they appeared to have no plans or resources to equip their progeny for the next step. My daughter rcently graduated. Nobody taught her how to write a CV, how to interview, how to express her strengths, how to deal with challenging questions. How to research the sort of organisations she might be interested in and how to present herself to get their attention. At the risk of being immodest she was lucky to have an HR Dad to help her out and she is well on the way to ggeting a decent job in textile esign with a reputable organisation.
I submit academia continues to fail in it primary function, which is to create energetic, educated focussed intellectual resources for the wealth-making sectors to draw on, along with challenging, streting meaningful jobs. Academia hires too many open-toed sandals and not enough hard-nosed business -oriented real life attitudes. I have a right to be annoyed about this, consider into the years and $$$ I put into my little darling's education.
If you are a regular reader of the Grauniad sits vac of course you could be be easily misled that the sole purpose of education was to produce anti anything worthwhile seatwarming jobs-worths, an activity which feeds the consumption of graduates without contributing anything to the wealth of the community whose efforts pay for them to indulge their loony-tunes fantasies with distractions like anti-hunting demos and gender confusion counselling clinics.
Gad, it's beer o'clock already. How time flies. Must go.
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