I know nothing about CH, but was having a number of niggly little problems a year or so back (some cold rads, some noise). I have Brit Gas cover, so called them out. They recommended a Kamco flush (or Kemco), but it wasn\'t covered by the policy (surprise surprise).
Anyway, after a second opinion I had it done (c£300 IIRC) and it cured all of my problems. It\'s supposed to be the mutts nuts of flushes, and took the bloke about 5 hours. They replaced the pump with their gizmo, then turned off all rads then flushed through one way, then back, then back etc etc, until the water came out clear. Then on go the rads one by one and the process is repeated. Like an enema for your CH, I guess!!
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Smokie,
Thanks for the info - do you know if your system is Primatic?
Matt35.
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Have you checked for air in the system? Particularly in the hot water section.
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frostbite,
I have noticed that when I use the bathroom COLD tap, I get a very slight bang sometimes - any connection?
I wish central heating systems were as uncomplicated as cars!
Matt35.
Niether of which I understand.
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I have noticed that when I use the bathroom COLD tap, I get a very slight bang sometimes - any connection?
I doubt it Matt - probably what is known as water hammer and not uncommon.
Look around the pipework for your hot system at the highest point, probably near the hot tank. You should see a single pipe sticking upright, going nowhere, with a knurled handscrew on top. If you find one, unscrew it slowly and listen for hissing - that\'s the air coming out of the system. When it\'s all gone you should hear a slight bang as the water hits the top and you will also see the water jet out. Close the tap at this point!
You will probably need to do this daily for a while if you\'ve never done it before, then about once a month.
HTH
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No, I doubt it is Primatic.
I suppose my point was that I was very dubious that just a flush could have such a beneficial effect
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Noises on central heating systems generally relate to two types. The one described as sounding like a kettle boiling is aptly known as ?kettling? in the heating trade.
This is when the actual boiler sounds like a kettle boiling and was the subject of many theories back in the late 60s and 70s.
Some plumbers discovered the way to cure it was to partially drain and add washing up liquid to the make up tank and refill. Not a good idea probably with the known amount of salt which this product contains but I can vouch that it did actually work.
I recall that Glow Worm said that they had discovered the cause was pinholes on the water side of the cast iron boiler left by the moulding sand and the noise was the agitation of the hot water passing over these. This was duly reported in the trade magazine of the time.
Since the widely used additives such as Fernox I haven?t heard much of this in recent years also as I haven?t been in the trade for a long time I?m not likely too but will enquire if its still present.
My own Glow Worm Majorca boiler which is 27 years old suffered from kettling for many years which didn?t concern me. But when I was once working on a large site a contractor gave me a 5 gallon drum of left over additive and I used some of this and it stopped the kettling completely.
I imagine that many domestic boilers are steel and not cast iron as they used to be so there wouldn?t be so many problems with kettling as there used to be. However I was recently told that Glow Worm have recently began sourcing their castings from India and their foundry in Milford has closed down.
The flushing of systems which appears to be a new way of making money can easily be done by any reasonable DIY man. The easy way is simply to remove each radiator and flush through with an hosepipe outside. It only involves turning off the valves at each end. Loosen the union nut to the radiator. Place a small bowl under this and open the air bleed at the top of the radiator. Lift off the read when empty and turn upside down to carry outside. Flush through with the hose and replace. Finally fill the system through the make up tank, check for leaks and if OK drain again and add your additive in the make up tank and allow to fill again. Bleed the rads and its done. Far more satisfactory than trying to flush through the whole system.
The second noise commonly heard is the circ pump which technically is not a pump but a circulator.
They can get noisy with age but usually is associated with entrapped air which causes the impeller to be thrashing about in a mixture of air and water. There is normally a bleed screw on the pump and often a speed adjusting screw also. Bleeding with the pump off usually gives the best results.
Keep the pump speed down to the minimum setting which gives good performance.
A noise anywhere on the system which sounds like water running is always air in the system somewhere. Getting rid of it can often be a nuisance as air will only bleed from a higher position than where it exists and often there is no air bleed where you need it. A Plumber will often crack open a joint to get rid of it but is actually badly designed when this is necessary.
When a heating system is completed and commissioned you sometimes hear the Plumber complaining he has had a bad fill which added half a day to the job. What he means is that he had a job to get rid of the air in the system and is always caused by incorrectly placed vents in relation to the pipework.
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No, I doubt it is Primatic. I suppose my point was that I was very dubious that just a flush could have such a beneficial effect
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Beware if it is a Primatic
\"Primatic (self priming) - only for use with gravity systems because the water for the central heating is taken from within the cylinder, and is only separated by an air lock (system additives must not be used with this type of cylinder as this will come out through the hot taps)\"
If you are removing and flushing radiators beware.
After draining it, the Black gunge still left inside (magnatite?) needs to be flushed out where it will not stain anything. Before lifting off a radiator always shut the bleed valve and plug the two open connections to avoid muck running out when you inevitably tilt it. I use rolled up kitchen roll as a plug.
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Alvin
Re your Adski query.
He has survived, as he has posted elsewhere, but wont tell us the outcome?
We need to know!
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Some general info
tinyurl.com/yro2u
tinyurl.com/22xqm
tinyurl.com/2u9jo
A little on fernox.
www.fernox.com
But NOT for Primatic
tinyurl.com/2oryu
A questionaire re powerflushing
tinyurl.com/2pgkl
Happy reading including some FAQs.
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Henry, Your furnox link.
quote
In single feed indirect cylinders e.g. ?Primatic? or similar, potable water chemicals must be used
They seem to suggest that you could use an additive in a Primatic cylinder. Seems very strange that one.
Didn\'t think there would be many still about nowadays as the Gas Board put the knocker on them decades ago when they wouldnt put any customers on their gas maintenance plans if they had a primatic cylinder.
Matts bang from the COLD tap in the bathroom is certainly water hammer and it sounds as if it is fed from the cold rising main.
If so its likely to be a loose clip or where it passes through a ceiling or similar. Best to get an assistant (haynes terminology) to keep turning the tap on or off and try to locate it. If it is off the mains its unlikely to be air and in fact in the olden days you will probably have noticed in public toilets etc done in lead pipe they used to tee off into tanks and cisterns, and leave a short piece of lead pipe above the tee blanked off. This was done to allow this to fill with air and act as a damper! to prevent water hammer. At least thats what they used to tell me.
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Henry, £300 to flush out the radiators. £50.00 to check the gas pressure.
Thers some serious money to be made here. And they dont even take the rads off. A few spanners and a hosepipe is about the total outlay and a few ads.
In my small town Ive noticed a new trade with a man going round with a pressure washer cleaning roof tiles. Seems to be always busy and apparently charges a tidy price.
Wouldnt fancy it myself as theres always the chance of falling off but flushing heating systems would be a doddle.
The wife insists I have to take them off for decorating so could also get some sub-contacting work from house decorators.
Why didnt I think of this 30 year ago...
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I hate to think how long it would take me to remove each rad, flush it etc, then replace it, and all the time running the risk of damaging carpets and wallcoverings. And then there are large parts of the system which still contain gunge (pipework, cylinders etc).
I wouldn\'t disagree that £300 was quite a lot for 5 hours work, but the guy had some expensive looking gear and that was British Gas rather than a plumber, and BG assured me that their equipment and process was considerably better than a plumber.
As far as I was concerned it was money well spent. If it\'s something within my scope I will try it, but I have experienced trying things and either not managing to complete them fully, or causing more trouble than I was fixing, so when in dount I would prefer to pay someone else. Maybe I\'m just useless at d-i-y...
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Yes of course you are quite right Smokie and I was really only joking after my late medicinal drink, and not suggesting that anyone should tackle projects they are not comfortable with..
If a dentist appeared on our forum giving tips on how to fill or pull your own teeth I would want him certified.
I think what I was saying is that charges for anything nowadays seem so exorbitant from yesteryear. Took a VHS recorder for repair the other week and the repair man charged me £34.00 just to take the cover off to tell me what needed doing.
I think its called living in a timewarp.
alvin
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Thanks for all the suggestions and the links lads - I just found some Boots wax ear plugs from last years holiday...so if all else fails...
Matt35.
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Alvin;
"The wife insists I have to take them off for decorating so could also get some sub-contacting work from house decorators."
Unfortunately, my wife insists I keep them on!
Matt35.
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On the face of it £60 per hour sounds a lot, but when you consider that Smokie is a self confessed DIY novice, and you've got the cover that BG offer against them doing any damage to carpets etc and the work is warranted, I think Smokier got his money's worth.
Having said that, we had a similar problem in our old house. BG quoted a similar figure. As our boiler was over 20 years old and fairly inefficient, we decided to pay an independent plumber to fit a new combi one. We also got it fitted in a different location to allow us to cope with a kitchen redesign.
The combi pushes the water through at about 3 times the pressure and hence the need for a powerflush was negated. The new boiler actually solved the problem completely, and burst the hot water pipe under the kichen floor, which meant that the insurance paid for a new kitchen (but that's another story folkes)!
As I was working away at the time, it seemed a good idea. A plumber, that we now use for all our CORGI stuff changed the boiler for £250. I had found a brand new Halstead 80,000 btu in the free ads (no longer needed by buyer) for £300, which was due to go into another property but our house's need was greater.
Total costs £550 plus a couple of new rads and TRVs all round.
If you need serious money spending on a system, it sometimes pays to weigh up the cost of a good plumber to change the big bits.
Hugo
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Hugo,
"The new boiler actually solved the problem completely, and burst the hot water pipe under the kichen floor, which meant that the insurance paid for a new kitchen (but that's another story folkes)!
Interesting that. I have never know a copper tube actually burst apart from frost damage. At one period during a copper shortage in the 70s stainless steel tubing was widely used and proved to be a disaster. Was it this by any chance?.
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Alvin,
I have seen two cases where 15mm copper pipe less has burst (7mm split in side) due to frost action. One in my brother's house under the sink and the second in a neighbours house (uninsulated mains water pipe in the loft). In both cases the pipe was almost new (late 80s and late 90s) copper.
Ian L.
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Ian,
Yes frost will burst anything but in normal service copper tube can take huge pressures. I was wondering if Hugo had the tube I mentioned previously. Anyone still having that in their property would be living dangerously. The Gas Board refused to place anyone with this installed on to their maintenance plans.
Having seen the consequences of it I don't blame them.
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Alvin,
Sorry, my fault, I missed the word 'apart' when reading your message. Agree that under normal circumstances pipe will not burst. However with the increased pressure in the HW system after conversion to a combi I would be checking all the joints especially if there is any pushfit.
regards
Ian L.
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Hi Alvin
To be precise, this hot water copper pipe acually split near a solder joint. The joint was some 20 years old as it had been made and then screeded over under the floor when the house was built.
It looked like that an excess of flux had been used to make this joint. We all know what the old flux does if it isn't mopped up, steadily corrodes the copper.
On inspection of the area, it became apparent that the pipe had been leaking slowly and swelling the bottom of the kitchen base units over time. The increased pressure within just accelerated the final part of the failure.
I simply used the polypipe twist joints and a length of polypipe 15mm, wrapped the pipe in plenty of damp proof membrane and re screeded the area.
Finding it was pretty easy, I just cranked up the hot water supply from the boiler and saw the water rising out of the concreate floor!
Hugo
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Hi Alvin To be precise, this hot water copper pipe acually split near a solder joint. The joint was some 20 years old as it had been made and then screeded over under the floor when the house was built.
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I know of a case where a leaking joint in the screed caused thousands of £££s of damage to a 7 year old house. It caused dry rot to set in. Walls and stairs etc replaced followed by all the proper wood block floors
>>On inspection of the area, it became apparent that the pipe had been leaking slowly and swelling the bottom of the kitchen base units over time.
It is always favourite to treat the bottom of kitchen units with a sealer.
I use wood hardener. It reduces the risk of chipboard turning into "Weetabix"
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This house was on an estate development and a neigbour had his boiler replaced by a combi.
You've guessed it - split pipe under the kitchen floor!
A friend of ours who still lives next door but one to our old house is contemplating having a combi put in. I've already advised him to be prepared for this little eventuality.
To be forewarned is to be forearmed.
I know what you mean about treating the bottoms of kitchen cabinets. I did this for a property I renovated. The kitchen floor has a DPM and there are no pipes underneath but you only have to leave water in place for a few minutes and - bingo! A 15mm carcase is now 25mm!
H
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I have never come across this practise of laying heating pipes under the floor and then screeding over them although have seen it featured on TV property renovations.
Personally I don?t like the idea for exactly the experiences you describe. Strangely enough I recall that many years ago the chasing of pipes into walls was prohibited by some authority. Don?t know whether it was building regs or whatever but sinking them into the floor sounds even worse.
I wonder who paid up for Henrys experience of thousands of pounds of damage. The insurance company wouldn?t be happy and my experience of builders and the 10 year NHBA tells me its a waste of time asking them.
My daughter moved into a new house and about three years after a visitor detected gas combustion smells in the home.
Gas board called in and on checking the flue which was taken up through these special internal wall blocks they found they had been misaligned by the builder causing a dangerous situation.
She had a gas fire/back boiler and they put a closure notice on it that it was not to be used.
The builder a national name said go to the NHBA as it was their responsibility. The NHBA said the structure of the building was their only concern so go back to the builder.
The builders simply wouldn?t discuss it.
I arranged a meeting with the local council building and regulations Engineer and discovered an interesting fact from them. Their remit on inspection of new private housing as regarding building regulations ends when the house reaches dpc level.
I couldn?t get my head round this one. My own experience as Clerk of Works tells me that the client employs one to ensure conformity to regulations and quality of work.
The council Engineers answer logical as it may be was that the council wasn?t the client and it wasn?t their responsibility. If it had been Council housing it would have been. My obvious questions such as who is responsible for conformity on private housing developments he was unable to answer.
The story ends there.. many letters with no results and eventually had to fit a new identical boiler but with a balanced flue going through the wall.
Perhaps someone else knows the answers???? Is this just my particular Council policy?.
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I have never come across this practise of laying heating pipes under the floor and then screeding over them
Standard approach in nearly all houses these days.
I wonder who paid up for Henrys experience of thousands of pounds of damage. The insurance company wouldn?t be happy and my experience of builders and the 10 year NHBA tells me its a waste of time asking them.
It was my immediate boss's house. NHBA /insurance paid out but not for original cause, plumbing, £500plus a few years ago. He found out the whole close of houses had iffy plumbing. Created a file of problems and threatened the builder who paid up the balance. A new gas main was required as the old one was rusty.
A good friend bought a new house. A few years later the Central Heating was hardly working. Long investigation found the heat exchanger was almost solid with scale. It needed a masonary drill to start removing some scale and to allow liquid to be poured in to start dissolving the scale...... A split pipe due to a bodge on installation of the hall radiator caused the system to be refilling all the time. The front path had also slightly subsided.
Sorry tales
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Agreed, it is fairly standard to run pipes under the floor but they should not be in contact with the screed or concrete. The pipes should be run inside some conduit or boxing. The chemicals in cement can attack pipes and corrode them (copper and steel).
Even the newer plastic pipe should be run inside a box or conduit.
Same goes for running pipes under the plaster of a wall...the plaster should not be in contact with the pipe.
A second point is that pipes will expand and contract and any movement risks loosening plaster and or screed that is in direct contact with the pipes...not a problem if the pipe is boxed.
Having said all this, builders still put pipes under concrete with no protection.
cheers
Ian L.
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"this practise of laying heating pipes under the floor and then screeding over them"
This practise is now prohibited by the Water Regulations with respect to water supply pipes. The usual practice, some years ago, was to wrap metal pipes in a double layer of Denso tape before embedding them in the structure. You can now get plastic ducts, which can be screeded into a floor. The plastic water pipes can be slid into the duct and, if necessary, slid out and replaced. I'm not certain what the legal position is with heating pipes.
"The builders simply wouldn?t discuss it."
I'm sure he wouldn't. The liability for negligence is fifteen years, or five years after the discovery of the negligence, if I correctly recall the details of engineering contract law. I would have thought the remedy was a county court summons. I'm an engineer not a lawyer, so I won't pontificate at you.
I would be concerned about would be the installation of the flues in all the other houses in the development. If your daughter's boiler was spilling combustion products into the house, it's possible others are as well but that the occupants are unaware of it.
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