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With some cars now being produced with F1 paddle shift gear change selectors; if you were to take your driving test in one of these, would you be categorised as passing your test using a manual gearbox, or auto?
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Good question......................................
Don't Know
(Glass-Tech)
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I think it's an auto. The criterion is to be able to use a clutch, either by hand or foot control, to make a safe start and to stop without stalling the engine.
I'm unable to back this up, just a vague memory of discussing a Citroen semi-auto with a driving instructor years ago.
Hawkeye
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Stranger in a strange land
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You would only get an auto licence. For a manual licence you must show the ability to alter the torque of the engine with a method other than the accelerator - i.e. a clutch.
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Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regs 1999:
Defines automatic
"vehicle with automatic transmission" means a class of vehicle in which either -
(a) the driver is not provided with any means whereby he may vary the gear ratio between the engine and the road wheels independently of the accelerator and the brakes, or
(b) he is provided with such means but they do not include a clutch pedal or lever which he may operate manually.
Now what I understand of the "paddle change" is that as you go up through the gears YOU decide when to change the gear and not the vehicle, which means it isn't an automatic ?
For the test for cars all that it says is that a driver should have the ability to drive in a straight line and go through the gears.
DVD
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Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regs 1999: Defines automatic "vehicle with automatic transmission" means a class of vehicle in which either - (a) the driver is not provided with any means whereby he may vary the gear ratio between the engine and the road wheels independently of the accelerator and the brakes, or (b) he is provided with such means but they do not include a clutch pedal or lever which he may operate manually. Now what I understand of the "paddle change" is that as you go up through the gears YOU decide when to change the gear and not the vehicle, which means it isn't an automatic ? For the test for cars all that it says is that a driver should have the ability to drive in a straight line and go through the gears. DVD
The paddle change is covered in para (b) above. You do have a means to vary the gear ratio etc etc but you do not have a clutch pedal or lever which is operated manually. The paddle is simply a gear selector, the gearbox operates the clutch and does the change. IMHO this is no different (from the point of view of a test) to using an auto by moving the gear selector through the gears manually.
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DVD you choose the gear to an extent, but on some systems if you redline in a gear and don't change the car will change even if you are in the semi auto mode to prevent damage to the engine. They also change down automatically as you slow down.
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I have no actual experience of this wonder but a very basic idea of its principle. I have sat going through it all for the past half hour and can see an argument either way for isn't the paddle a lever? Reading about the Audi which has the automatic box, in the blurb it says with TPTC also fitted then you have the option of changing gears manually for the 'sporty' drive. All very confusing to someone who only recently came to grips with the removal of the leather belt drive and hand gear change on a motor cycle.
I suppose the ultimate authority will be with the DVLA Testers
and their dictum. If you turn up with one what Licence do they give you?
Registered Driving Instructors comment please.
DVD
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I'm not a driving Inst. but......
One of my friends has an A class with the clutchless manual "triptronic" and his wife took her test in it and got a Auto driver's license.
Chad.
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As the son of a driving instructor and having been through a similar thread on the smart owners board I can categorically state that in orer to get a manual licence you must be tested in a vehicle with a manual clutch.
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So basically no clutch pedal = automatic.
Perhaps it is time for a middle ground "semi-auto" licence category, or would that be too complicated/unrealistic to manage in the eyes of the law?
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Perhaps it is time for a middle ground "semi-auto" licence category, or would that be too complicated/unrealistic to manage in the eyes of the law?
IMO, yes. In anycase, most semi-auto boxes have a "full-auto" mode and when using it in manual mode the only real skill, if you can call it that, is moving the stick/paddle to choose the next gear. Most (all?) normal autos can also be used in this manner if you wish. So I don't see any real difference in the skill levels needed to drive a semi or full auto.
Chad.
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That should have read....
..... or would that be too complicated/unrealistic to manage in the eyes of the law?
IMO, yes, completely unnecessary. Most semi-auto boxes have a "full-auto" mode and even when using it in manual mode the only real skill, if you can call it that, is moving the stick/paddle to choose the next gear. Most (all?) normal autos can also be used in this manner if you wish. So I don't see any real difference in the skill levels needed to drive a semi or full auto. So no need for a new license category.
Chad.
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Miller, I think another licence category is a waste of time.
In a year or two the clutch pedal will be as much of an anachronism as a starting handle is today.
Hawkeye
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Stranger in a strange land
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In a year or two the clutch pedal will be as much of an anachronism as a starting handle is today. Hawkeye ----------------------------- Stranger in a strange land
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I doubt it, Hawkeye but put a note in your diary and we'll see....
There'll always be a demand for the control that a manual clutch gives you but I wouldn't be surprised if it was controlled electrically much like 'drive-by-wire' steering could be. Mind you, who would trust the electrics on certain makes of cars?
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Nick,
What about the Airbus?
Matt35.
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Nick, What about the Airbus? Matt35.
Matt, when cars are built and maintained to aviation standards even Citroens and Renaults will have reliable electrics.
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In a year or two the clutch pedal will be as much of an anachronism as a starting handle is today. Hawkeye
Well, here we are three and a half years on. And..., Hawkeye?
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"here we are three and a half years on"
That's the trouble with these boards - people can pick up on what you said long after you've forgotten! :-)
Edited by J Bonington Jagworth on 23/10/2007 at 13:26
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One of my friends has an A class with the clutchless manual "triptronic" and his wife took her test in it and got a Auto driver's license. Chad. i do hope so , i have a full automatic license , and i have been looking at the smart cars , and was wondering if the tiptronic transmission smart cars would be suitable legally .
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If I recall correctly pre-select gearboxes (yes, I'm old enough to remember them!) were classed as automatic (semi-automatic on PSVs/PCVs I think). They had a third pedal but it wasn't a clutch. It was an "operating pedal" which engaged the gear you pre-selected.
So, I'd agree no manual clutch = automatic.
Terry
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Just to wind this thread up.
Called at our local DSA (test centre) this morning and posed the question DD asked to three testers having their am nerve settler.
"If I turned up with a TT and was successful in the test what Licence would I get?."
Three in unison " Automatic only"
DVD
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How did you set off??
Was it a centrifugal clutch?
I remember some trips going back 40 years in a neighbour's post-war Armstrong Siddley which had a pre-selector 'box and a column selector, but I can't recall what you did to get going.
Sorry DVD ...
Hawkeye
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Stranger in a strange land
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The bigger A/Siddeley had a fluid flywheel;the smaller ones slipped the brakeband on 1st. gr.to get moving;if you got slip on 2,3 & 4 ,you lifted a plate in the floor to access the adjustment for the brakebands.
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Been looking at replacements for the missus's car, she has an automatic-only licence; both the Vauxhall and Ford brochures claim their semi-autos are driveable on an auto-only licence as "they have no clutch pedal". I don't know what (if any) basis this has in law (I suspect none) but it seems like as good a definition as any to me.
In the event we went for a conventional torque-convertor planetary automatic.
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