Actually I realise I have decided.
Goodbye.
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Thanks Mark, I wasn't sure which way to take his little contribution in the damaged paintwork thread!
Blue
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Why are Engineers not recognised by the public today as professionals?
I was really fuming (quietly) today in the bank when the manager asked "hmm design engineer, is that a mechanic?"
Why does everyone call themselves an "engineer" today, if they fix washing machines, or mend cars or install heating systems?
To be an "Engineer" you need now to have a Masters Degree and several years experience in a position of responsibility. Engineers design and devlop products, everything we see around us, from car engines to fizzy pop bottles. Who do they think come up with these things? Martians?
How many times do doctors get asked "oh so you cut hair then?" or barristers "how many did you arrest in your uniform today?" What is it with Engineering!
Opinions please, you must all be guilty of saying at some point " oh the telephone doesn't work, best call an engineer round....."
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I have BSc, MSc, PhD in Engineering and MBA (business qualification). I work mainly as an engineering consultant (in the automotive, and other, industries) and also get involved in training engineers and popularising engineering. I am currently talking to a BBC producer about a new 'prime-time' series, to be filmed later this year, based around engineering which will follow teams of engineers working on new products.
Despite (or perhaps, because of) my involvement in these things I remain convinced the the UK is 'finished' as an engineering nation. Most of our manufacturing has been 'exported' and the design work is now following suit. Many universities are now closing their engineering and science departments and they will never be reopened.
I regularly work overseas (EU, e.g. BMW) and the attitudes there are totally different.
The average British person is totally disinterested in engineering and lacks any semblance of technical nous - this is in complete contrast to, for example, the Germans who are generally much better educated, more knowledgable about technical things and far less snobbish. In the UK to admit you know what goes on under the bonnet of a car is to admit to belonging to the lower social orders - 'important' people don't trouble their heads with things like that.
This, of course, has been going on for many years and it will not change in my lifetime. To any bright youngsters I would say, 'stay out of the technical/scientific professions'. Medicine, law, accountancy, will provide a much better future for you. If you really are interested in engineering and technology then emigrate.
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One of the underpinnings of a engineering education has to be a good knowledge of, and feeling for, mathematics. Modern computer packages for design are impressive and essential but are misplaced in the hands of someone who hasn't a feel for the simple model of the situation. The more the politicians have mucked about with education the less impressive have been the results. I was never happier than when I taught mathematics to student engineers. The truly gifted will acquire what they need, the less than meteoric student however too often just lacks the basic skills. Continental students described to me how their university courses were longer than ours by several years and included mathematics through to the final years whereas ours are usually limited to, at most, the first two years.
Many people. I'm sure would agree that, in this country, the goodies go to those qualified in medicine, law or accountancy of which the last two don't do much for the human condition.
I've just realised I haven't mentioned automotive engineering once - whoops.
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My main gripe is that the neither the Government nor the professional institutions so absolutely nothing to promote engineering as a profession with professional status.
Taking Germany for example, you are simply NOT allowed to call yourself an engineer if you are a mechanic, technician, repairman, plumber etc.
Remember the old chestnut about housewives being called "domestic engineers" under the political correctness fad......
As a side note, I do agree with you t.g.webb about the lack of fundamental knowledge of graduates at the moment, the number of interviewees that cannot calculate a spring rate from a graph of force-extension is absolutely astounding (ca. 50%)!
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If the proposed changes to tuition fees go ahead then engineering degrees will dissappear completely. Engineering courses have longer hours and require more time than other degrees. Its likely potential students will shun engineering courses due to cost as well as its poor image.
I started a electronics engineering degree but simply could not afford to stay at Uni so 'dropped out' after 8 months.
The friends i made in this short time are now struggling to find jobs even with good degrees behind them. Most have gone into IT which has little to do with engineering.
An article in a well known engineering magazine really summed up British attitudes to engineering. The public were asked the following question:
Q:Name a famous engineer
The most common answer....
A:Kevin Webster (the mechanic from Coronation street!!!)
When did engineering become so unfashionable ??
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i was hoping to see if any non-engineers might be able to give a reason for why they think we are all mechanics, TV and washing machine repairmen etc?
Anyone out there out there a tradesperson repairing boilers got "Heating Engineer" on their van? Any electicians who list themselves as "electrical engineers" in the yellow pages? Any builders who call themselves "civil Engineers"? Why do you do it?
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So when BT send someone out to install a new line, the little card that says "our engineer will call with you between 10.00 and 12.00" is inaccurate in all senses?
andymc
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yes totally. The dude who calls and comes to fix the system is a technician
The engineer is the chap who designed and implemented the network. Will be the person who decides what is needed for the telephone system to cope with broadband etc. ie mainly a desk and suit job. Not the guy with the van and tools
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I am a scientist and work very closely with engineers (civils, m&e, structures) and used to work for a multinational engineering company. In my opinion, one is not an engineer unless you are chartered (CEng or similar). That is the only mark of someone who has demonstrated to his peers that he is "qualified".
Jonathan
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This subject has been popping up in the engineeering journals all my time.
In my view one thing is, Chartered Engineers do not usually render any direct service to the public, unlike at least some members of most professions (and all of the oldest!) and so they have little idea of what it means to be one. It is difficult to see what more might be done than has already been tried.
Personally, I shut up about C. Eng and MIEE: somebody would ask for advice on rewiring their house or want a free fix for something!
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True enough, but how many people know that? In my experience even company directors can be ignorant of the implications of Chartered status and few will want to pay extra for the privilege of employing Chartered engineers. They want someone to do the job as cheaply as possible; ONC/D HNC/D BSc/BEng - its all the same to them.
Another factor we have now is that there are large numbers of engineers coming into the country from overseas (largely Middle East, India/Pakistan and China). They are usually willing to work for much lower wages than a 'home' applicant and that is depressing engineering pay in some sectors. I believe that the same is happening in IT.
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I wouldn?t be so quick to jump to the conclusion that a certificate automatically denotes the engineer status. I have a B.Eng, M.Sc and a Ph.D. in Advanced Control Systems Engineering ( well, I am sure this will get some noses up, but they say control is the mother of all engineering). BUT I DO NOT call myself an engineer. Let me elaborate. Engineering in essence is about solving a given problem, in an ?optimal? manner, where of course optimal may take many forms (cheapest, quickest and so on ). In many cases the ?experience? which an engineer collects through his day to day work will put him in a better position than the person who knows the ins and outs of the theory. For example my first degree was in electronics. I could tell you in astonishing detail how the computer works, how the CPU is built, what does the ALU do and even to tell you in great detail how the transistors are made using doping in silicone or molecular beam epitaxy or for that matter any one of other techniques, BUT if someone gives me a computer with a faulty mother board, I have no clue what to do. Similarly as part of my work now, I am working on the control systems of high performance gas-turbine engines, of the type used in the Eurofighter Typhoon and whose ancestor is the Rolls-Royce Spey engine found in the F-4 and the Fokker, and again, although I know the ins and outs of the engine and how it works and how to design the multi-loop controllers, IF someone gives me a real one of these with a problem, I am lost. I think nowadays engineering is more about theoretical than practical knowledge and this is the reason many companies now prefer to recruit people with no degrees at all and to train them for their need. In addition, increasingly engineering is becoming multi-disciplinary in its nature (control engineers learn thermodynamics, mechanical engineers learn electronics, ?. And all of the have to learn managements and corporate finance!! ) which means the subject is becoming even more abstract and theoretical. I dare anyone who could show me a fresh engineering graduate who can actually fix anything, never mind design anything that works. This problem is of course not helped in this country by the very weak link which exists between the universities and the industry, unlike for example Japan. So to wrap up, I don?t agree at all that a person without a certificate cannot be called an engineers and equally that anyone who has a certificate should. Engineering is about possessing a certain kind of problem solving mentality, not possessing stamped papers. Best wishes to you all - Amin
PS. This very topic is now hotly debated both in the IEE (Institute of Electrical Engineers) and the IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers)
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My problem is not within the Engineering industry, it's outside. As it's been said above, I hate it when it's assumed by 9 out o 10 people, that an Engineer is the man who fixes the washing machine or mends the phone. The fact that i CAN fix a washing machine is neither here nor there, it's just annoying when for example a bank manager of all people says Engineer? oh that's a mechanic right? and you have to explain that it's under professional, no really it is..
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Not much of a motoring discussion going on here. This will get moved to the current "I have a question" thread later.
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>>The fact that i CAN fix a washing machine is neither here nor there
Well, I don't know; if it's not actually your job and you have no cover, in the current litigious world I'd suggest you stick to tinkering with your own one!
Same applies to cars.
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Amin
Surely the best way to prove that you have a certain kind of problem solving mentality is to demonstrate that to your peers, who have already demonstrated it to theirs etc. I agree that a certificate isn't the be all and end all, but becoming chartered is about a lot more than a certificate, it involves a lot of very hard work, most reputable bodies do not accept time served as a guide, they want papers, demonstration of project management both practical and theory, evidence of sufficient achievement of core ccompetencies and so on.
I am obviously talking about the area that I have most knowledge (contruction and design), in which an engineer has to know and model the components, but also has to understand that practicalities also apply, like getting the damn thing to site and erected. its no use knowing what size of ac units to use in a turnkey office facility if the structures design hasn't incorporated sufficient ducting for all the correct sized pipe to fit.
Jonathan
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Interesting thread...
My Husband does indeed repair boilers, working for a household name multinational. When he was taken on his job title was Heating Services Engineer (has no formal qualifications although accredited by OFTEC). Last week he received some business cards and it appears he is now a Heating Services Technician. Maybe the tide is turning?!
And why do self employed trades use 'Engineer'? Because it supposedly sounds better that's why. And if there's no regulation around it, I'm sure they will continue to do so.
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Seeing as we are about to be zapped for OT discussion I'll have my 2p on a related subject.
The value to society of various professions is all out of step these days in UK. Engineers, in the truest sense, are just one example.
Those of us who are parents bring our children into the world, nurture them, try and bring them up to be good citizens. Then we let them into the care of teachers for 6-7 hours a day, umpteen weeks a year from 3/4 yrs old until 16 or older. We are giving our most precious commodity into the care of strangers to educate them in ways we cannot ourselves achieve. So how do we treat education and the educators? Pathetically.
If I had my way teachers, lecturers and the educating profession would have their true distinguished place in society, in both remuneration and professional standing. I am so grateful that these people strive to improve the knowledge of the ungrateful population, we should be behind them and support them all the way.
Yet society rewards, amongst others a group of jumped up bookies runners in the City.
Rant over.
BTW I am not a teacher nor related to one.
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After the last summer holidays I came to 2 conclusions.
1. Teachers should be paid double.
2. School holidays should be halved!!!!!
FiF your so right I do not think that teachers are given nearly as much recognition and support as they deserve.
But this is typical of of British Society today. "Its someone elses problem thats what I pay my taxes for."
Fullchat
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You're not quite right, FiF - the bookies' runners manage to reward themselves, along with a lucky handful who vote themselves big handouts without 'society' being able to do anything about it.
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I fully agree with all that has been said above, but Engineers do themselves no favours when it comes to promoting their proffession. From above we are still calling ourselves CEng, whether we like it or not we are in Europe and all of us should have got our act together and registered as Eur Ing. You never know maybe the EU will do something about defining Engineers.
As for UK engineering, I now work in the Far East when I can get a "bookies runner's" salary, down side is much time away from loved ones. Be aware though guys (and gals) I am working with stunning local engineers who are up with the best, there are plenty of them and they work much cheaper I would suggest that this is one of the main reasons we are being trounced by Far Eastern car manufacturers.
FiF - over here education is a privilage, teachers are held in high esteme. Education is regarded as one of the foundations of society.
BTW the only thing Clarkson has said that I agree with is his story on IK Brunell
Rgs
Jim M (GMT+8)
PS spelling mistakes prove that I is an Engineer
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There was an engineer who had an exceptional gift for fixing all things mechanical. After serving his company loyally for over 30 years, he happily retired.
Several years later the company contacted him regarding a seemingly impossible problem they were having with one of their multimillion dollar machines. They had tried everything and everyone else to get the machine to work but to no avail. In desperation, they called on the retired engineer who had solved so many of their problems in the past.
The engineer reluctantly took the challenge. He spent a day studying the huge machine. At the end of the day, he marked a small "x" in chalk on a particular component of the machine and stated, "This is where your problem is".
The part was replaced and the machine worked perfectly again.
The company received a bill for £50,000 from the engineer for his service. They demanded an itemized accounting of his charges.
The engineer responded briefly:
One chalk mark £1
Knowing where to put it £49,999
It was paid in full and the engineer retired again in peace.
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Regarding the above I have my e-mail address set as default.
When I reply to incoming mail addressed to myself it always puts Margarets (my wife) e-mail address in the from box and I have to manually change it to my own.
When I create New Mail it puts my own in the from box as it should.
I have checked tools, accounts etc many times but cannot find why it should place margarets address in reply when the mail was addressed to me correctly.
Any ideas please...
alvin
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Just to add to the discussion, I read an article that said that engineers in Canada had taken to legal means to stop software engineers using the title. Obviously this produced a battle of words, the engineering side stating that anyone without the appropriate degree shouldn't use engineer in their job discription, to this the IT lot replied that some extremely famous long gone 'engineers' couldn't then be called such. I think the example used was Eiffle.
Oh well, doesn't really involve me, I'm only a technician!
Steve.
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I'm an engineer (Chemical), but I can also fix almost anything (cars, washing machines, houses etc etc etc), and am fascinated by anthing that 'goes round or needs oil putting in it'. Does that mean I have a personality disorder (probably they all sneer - you're an engineer - oh, and I think the refrigeration cycle is amazing!).
'Rhythmic Gymnast' is a protected occupation, but engineering isn't, makes you wonder really.
I know the fitters/technicians/mechanics are not engineers, but it still gives me something to shout at the TV about - see it's that personality disorder coming through again.
Good news is that if fewer people go into engineering, there will be a shortage and our pay will go up to match the 'bookies runners' (yeah, right!) and we might get the recognition we crave.
RichardW
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