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VW Group TSI engine chain failures - daveyK_UK

Is the recent increase in VAG TSI petrol chain cam engine failures due to the recent cold spell of weather making the metal brittle?

it seems to be a coincidencethat the Skoda dealer had a big backlog of 10 and 11 plate roomsters and octavias in for engine repairs when I took the Skoda Rapid in for a service this week?

The mechanic (who was far more friendlier than the service manager!) said they all (around 9 cars) needed new engines due to problems with the chains.

VW Group TSI engine chain failures - madf

Chains starved of oil on cold starts? Exacerbating well knwn quality failures ..

VW Group TSI engine chain failures - Wukl

That's quite shocking, nine cars at one dealership. Imagine if that number was reflected at every dealer in the country; simplistic I know, unrepresentative probably, but it's a thought.

Still, nice to read of a mechanic 'spilling the beans'. It also emphasises why I read HJ and it's forums rather than take any note of what Autocar or WhatCar? say about my potential purchases...

VW Group TSI engine chain failures - 659FBE

These engines have a fundamental problem which, in my view is common to many other applications which use reverse involute chains. They and their derivatives would most definitely be on my list of engines to avoid.

The new generation EA211 engines (first used on the CitMiUp) have wisely reverted to a belt drive.

An aluminium engine has a high degree of linear expansion, meaning that the chain or belt tensioner has to accomodate a large change in the drive centre distances each way as the engine thermally cycles.

VAG finally (after years of producing many chain drive engines which proved not to be of lasting value to their cistomers) realised that they had the answer in their parts list. The "old" diesels used a belt drive with a sprung, friction damped eccentric tensioner made by Litens in Canada. This device is well made, well designed and fully fit for service, with high quality Japanese bearings.

I observe that the twin cam EA211 has a similar tensioner - I wonder if the patent for this has now expired so that VAG can source it more cheaply? Anyway, if it's a Litens, or a copy without design flaws (not unknown in VAG-land), the EA211 should give good service, at least in terms of its all-important cam drive.

659.

VW Group TSI engine chain failures - Engineer Andy

What exactly is so unique to VAG chain-driven engines (compared to Japanese ones) that makes them so unreliable? Can't they just buy a couple of Mazdas/Hondas etc and see how they do it reliably and mimic the design without infringing on any patents? I've been driving Japanese chain-driven petrol-engined cars for 20 years (admitedly non-turbos) and never had a problem, and nor have almost anyone else using that technology designed/built in that country. Is it that VAG are scrimping on the design to save weight/money, similarly to the 'long service intervals' which means the oil is reduced of of poor quality in the second year after a service?

VW Group TSI engine chain failures - RT

Responsible manufacturers just quietly get on with replacing items under warranty - BMW went through a phase of cylinder coatings failing due to Q&R testing on German fuel only, which is marginally different to UK fuel despite both meeting EU standards - the coating specification was changed in production a BMW carried out replacements under warranty - at any one time each dealer had several engines in the wotkshop waiting to go back to Germany.

Anecdotally tales of reliability, or unreliability, is heavily skewed by how well the manufacturer/dealer reacts to problem initially.

The only accurate set of figures are the manufacturer's warranty claims statistics and, unsurprisingly, none of them publish them!

Forums can be very distorted - everyone with an issue complains but those without issues tend to stay silent.

VW Group TSI engine chain failures - Smileyman

Is this the 1.2 or the 1.4 engines? Also, presumably Seat cars will be suffering the same problem?

Edited by Smileyman on 23/01/2016 at 14:48

VW Group TSI engine chain failures - DirtyDieselDogg

As my father would have said "Hell rub it up them", in this case the VAGroup, since my entirely unsatisfactory Skoda DSG experience appears to be simply "the norm" in dealing with "known to the motoring community" issues.

Across the VAG.

Deny everything.

This extending to my recent DPF/ERG Warranty repairs, which the award winning Skoda dealer flately denied existed, since the lights were not on when I finally made it to the dealership, this despite multiple ph calls to the dealer when the lights were on, on several occassions, and being told, just to ignore them, and indeed having them read and logged by an Indy on a memory stick, which I had plugged into my laptop in the dealership.

Quite unbelievable in a kinda "Dead Parrot" fashion.

Hence my decision of resolute conviction to go Japanese, or indeed Korean next time round.

marcus

VW Group TSI engine chain failures - brum

There is a great deal of secrecy and denial about cam chain problems on Tsi engines. Surprised? This is volkswagen group after all.

There are a number of issues.

1. Up to mid 2011 the newly adopted inverted tooth camchain design was weak, and the chains were sourced from a cheapskate supplier that used clapped out tooling to stamp out the links. The chain link pivots therefore wore quickly and the chain stretched. And that wore the sprockets too. Vw denied any problem until they had so many failures they adopted a silent recall approach that only addressed obvious rattling cases and then only if within warranty.

2. They attempted to address the problem on newer builds by changing supplier and using a different link configuration. They also put a simple chain guard in the cam cover that would limit how high the chain could ride off the sprocket. However, rattling chains on start up still occurred.

3. It became obvious there was also a problem with the hydraulic chain tensioner and this has be subject to a number of revisions over the years. Again, all secret.

4. The most contributory factor in my opinion is the arrangement of the oil filter. On the tsi this is a screw on cannister type that sits on the top of the engine, the base of the cannister uppermost. This design potentially gives the problem that if you unscrew it, it would pour its contents over the engine. However, some bright spark decided to design in a drain back valve located in the housing which opens when you unscrew it to release the oil to sump. Clever these Germans eh? Except this drain back valve is a crap design, and if the filter is under or overtightened, it doesnt seal properly, and it leaks anyway. So when the engine is switched off, the oil filter drains down slowly, and being a VW design the camchain hydraulic tensioner releases. So every cold start is like the oil has been drained.

Cold start, tensioner backed off, chain stretched, sprockets worn, empty oil filter, no oil pressure for 3 or 4 seconds. I wonder what might go wrong?

This I have learned the hard way over 4 years as I have tried to convince skoda dealer that cars shouldnt rattle like they have a clapped out engine on cold starts. Denial, lies, secret workshop instructions, seemingley incompetent mechanics and a group culture that force dealers to take the financial hit on warranty claims so the dealer is unwilling to do anything.

Welcome to Volkswagen Group.

Edited by brum on 24/01/2016 at 20:27

VW Group TSI engine chain failures - madf
A recent survey has found that German cars, including Audi, BMW and VW, are among the worst when it comes to engine failure.

tinyurl.com/nwd6cw2