>>Driving unless I have very much missed the point is a way ofgetting from A to B as quickly as possible... >>
No, it's a way of getting from A to B as safely as possible. It doesn't need to be the quickest.
That's the first trick question of the new theory/pyschological test. FAIL
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Good! I don't care, as I don't have to take it! : )
The primary objective getting from A to B, unless you're sightseeing (in which case, IMHO, find something you like the look of and get out of the car... don't dawdle and gawp!!) IS speed. Safety, whilst important, is something you consider as a side-effect of the action you're undertaking, ie getting from A to B. Any speed above (arbitrary figure about to be made up) say 5mph can be dangerous.... what should we do? Stay in the house all our lives? I think not. It's a calculated risk.
How many of these self-satisfied, smug, tofu-munching quarterwits who drive round in Toyota Priuses and the like at 45mph whatever the road conditions, could deal with an emergency situation properly and competently? I am not advocating everyone driving round like lunatics (actually, to quote Bill Bryson, that's exactly what I am saying but let's pretend I'm not...) but pleeeeeeeeeeease driving at 45 and switching off your brain is JUST as stupid as chavving round a town centre at 50. Yes, it is. Think about it before submitting a knee-jerk reaction (or a Simon Heffer for those people who have read his column...).
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I think that makes my point. Make one simple questioning observation and it provokes a torrent in response.
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Most journeys are about getting somewhere as quickly as possible in safety. Who would deliberately take longer unless they want to save a few pence on fuel? If some people feel safe at 45mph on a NSL road, fine, just don't get annoyed if I want to pass you, safely of course.
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I'd like to think that I would (who wouldn't?) but if I'm being realistic I've probably picked up far too many bad habits in the fifteen years since I passed. I wouldn't mind having a go though...
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Yes, me too.... I should point out (and I will, as Cliff has made me feel all guilty!) that I am NOT, repeat not saying my driving is anywhere near perfect, just that I don't think the current "test", such as it is has any relevance to driving on a day-to-day basis. Yes, it's difficult, and I would have hated to have done the theory test, but let's be honest.... it hasn't done much to improve driving standards has it?
Feeding the wheel and suchlike I abandoned upon driving home from my test. No doubt there are those who think I am going straight to hell for daring to say such a thing, but there you go!
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Burn him! Burn him! He's a witch! :-)
By the way, I'm with you on the PC thing. There's a quote somewhere that I can't recall fully but it goes along the lines of "I'll may be offended by what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.". Or something...
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It was Voltaire wot said that, Badwolf. Some French writery bloke...
Another favourite quote of mine is Nietzche's (and apologies for not getting it exactly right): "That is my truth, now tell me yours".
Basically it all boils down to me justifying having a good old argument... as you can see I do quite like that!
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I don't think the current "test" such as it is has any relevance to driving on a day-to-day basis.
You can say that again stevied... but it was always like that.
At least the old test used to have hand signals to use if your indicators stopped working. No one knows them now.
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At least the old test used to have hand signals to use if your indicators stopped working. No one knows them now.
>>>>>
I still use them but you are right Lud everyone looks at you as if you are doing some kind of yoga .
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Cliff, I know it's hard to get over one's tone on a discussion board, but my tongue is firmly in my cheek and I am not having a personal go at anyone! I do agree with what I've written, but it wasn't intended to be abusive towards you personally, if you get my drift.
I have to rant on a Monday, it's cathartic....
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Stevied - I didn't take it as abusive for one moment, and I didn't really mean to imply that you had gone off into an uncontrollable paroxysm of rage either!
I agree really, yes of course speed is important, but not quite top priority I suggest
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: ) I like the word paroxysm.. will try and use it in a meeting today!
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>>feed the wheel<<
totally agree on this point, how safe can reversing be if you are trying to twist your head over your shoulder whilst at the same time fluffing around with the wheel, and likewise i dont care what "they" say, unless you are an Owl, you haven't got a clear 180 degree view behind you.
Far safer to half turn in the seat, place one arm over the backrest, and steer with one hand, this way you can see completely behind you, and thereby save the life of the little old lady who set off half an hour ago to cross through the space you are now parking in.
there! thats my rant over as well!! must be something in the water today!
Billy
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Raise the age to 21.
People tend to be more cautious (i.e. slower, and annoying to you) if they learn later.
Encourage people to i) move away from the lights when they go green
I honestly have never seen anyone not do this, unless you mean you want everyone to be revved up on red, and leaving while the lights are red+amber, which makes them far more likely to hit you, running red from the other way. The 2-3 seconds that you have to wait for some drivers is not going to kill you.
ii) drive up to the speed limits wherever reasonable.
In other words you want people to be more aggressive.
Not a very good idea. The reason they are doing 30mph on that winding B road that you want to corner in your BMW at 60mph is because they do not feel confident or in control at a higher speed. So when there happens to be a cyclist or a deer just round the bend, they will stop. If they (NOT you, you are not driving the car, you do not have their reactions, mind, etc.) were driving faster they would feel unsafe.
Oh yes a note to the "powers that be"... why oh why do we teach learners to drive in such a futile pointless fashion? You DON'T need to start braking for a roundabout 20 minutes before you get to it.
I think that's because if you teach them to slam the brakes on at the last minute you will get lots of new drivers going into the back of people, because it takes experience that you won't acquire while still learning to judge exactly how far it will take to stop.
Teach people to DRIVE not to pass a test.
Ah yes, let's send everybody to do their learner driving training at Silverstone, then EVERYBODY will drive like a maniac.
Any speed above (arbitrary figure about to be made up) say 5mph can be dangerous....
Wrong.
Higher speed = more dangerous. It's a statistical fact - that's why you will pay more for your insurance than a woman, because women drive in a manner that annoys you but is much safer. More people trained to go faster = more dead people. Let's hope it's not someone in your family that gets killed.
driving at 45 and switching off your brain is JUST as stupid as chavving round a town centre at 50. Yes it is.
Nope. It's not. You are utterly clueless.
A town centre is full of pedestrians, who are by FAR most at risk from motor vehicles, a mother pushing a pram across the road is going to come off far worse from an idiot doing 50mph than a dozey driver rear-ending you when you are demonstrating your ability to shop in the shortest distance possible.
BTW, I admit to being first off at the lights myself, but I'm not stupid enough to advocate that people should be TRAINED to be more aggressive drivers.
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He did say: "driving at 45 AND switching off your brain"
I think that counts as stupid...
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driving at 45 and switching off your brain is JUST as stupid as chavving round a town centre at 50. Yes it is.
>>Nope. It's not. You are utterly clueless.
Eh? Just run that one past me again? You're saying that driving at 45mph in a daze and totally unaware of what is going on around you is safe??????? All inattentive (be it to the speed limit, the conditions, the surroundings) driving is unsafe, full stop.
I drive over 50,000 miles a year and I see a huge amount of drivers who toddle along buried in their own thoughts (assuming they're clever enough to think) and I also see a huge amount of chavtastic morons showing off. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near either of them.
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Eh? Just run that one past me again? You're saying that driving at 45mph in a daze and totally unaware of what is going on around you is safe???????
Where did I say that?
All inattentive (be it to the speed limit the conditions the surroundings) driving is unsafe full stop.
Agreed, but the consequences of being a maniac are MORE dangerous and MORE unsafe than being an unattentive mimsy running into the back of someone due to lack of concentration.
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Eh? Just run that one past me again? You're saying that driving at 45mph in a daze and totally unaware of what is going on around you is safe???????
>>Where did I say that?
It was how I logically construed your argument.
All inattentive (be it to the speed limit the conditions the surroundings) driving is unsafe full stop.
>>Agreed, but the consequences of being a maniac are MORE dangerous and MORE unsafe than >>being an unattentive mimsy running into the back of someone due to lack of concentration.
Not sure I agree with you here. A mimsy (excellent word by the way) can cause just as much damage by hitting someone at 45 as a chav can at 50, ie death. Also, and I've a feeling you won't agree with this, I'd rather be behind someone driving right up to and perhaps slightly over the speed limit than stuck behind someone poodling along admiring the view. I know that you shouldn't allow yourself to get annoyed and worked up when following a dawdler but it's human nature and you do. You find yourself willing to take a greater risk to get past them and get on your way. I may be speaking out of turn here but I'd wager that a great numer of the people on the post would agree with me. That's why I consider both categories of driver to be as dangerous as each other.
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"your ability to shop in the shortest distance possible"
Blimey, is that in the test too, now..?
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I will reply to your ill-thought out and badly argued comments later, at my leisure, flunky... I need to devote my full attention to it...
Suffice to say, for the moment, that I am not a BMW driver, although I love the joke! BMW drivers are renowned as being aggresive, so you think I must drive a BMW! I am glad I am wearing my corset, for I fear my sides may have split.... : )
I think for the mo, I will let this comment speak for itself. Comments on it appreciated.....
"More people trained to go faster = more dead people".
Yep, folks... he REALLY wrote that. Are you that Welsh Chief Constable, trolling on a motoring forum? I've got YOUR number 118 118....
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And while we're at it -
>>Higher speed = more dangerous. It's a statistical fact
No it isn't!!!! It is inappropriate speed that is more dangerous but I fail to see how you can say that I'm driving dangerously if I'm doing 65 on a straight, wide, rural nsl road. Sure, driving at 50 round town is suicidal (and possible homicidal) but speed must be viewed in context. To insist that driving at high speed period (as our American chums would have it) is dangerous is ill-informed and blinkered.
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Cliff Pope: "No, it's a way of getting from A to B as safely as possible. It doesn't need to be the quickest. "
So, drive at 1mph everywhere. That would fit perfectly into your model of the world. RAA, QED, for the logicians on here.
V
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"Driving, unless I have very much missed the point, is a way of getting from A to B as quickly as possible..."
I like to get from home to work/shops as slowly as possible and from work/shops to home as quickly as possible.
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"Encourage people to i) move away from the lights when they go green . Driving unless I have very much missed the point is a way of
getting from A to B as quickly as possible..." - stevied
Stevied I hope I never have to drive within 2 miles of you, you sound potentially lethal!
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Anybody else want to completely miss the points I am making? : ) Like Mapmaker, I am trying not to be rude, but blunt... well yeah.
I am NOT repeat NOT advocating lunatic driving!!!! "As quickly as possible" with consideration to the conditions (traffic, weather etc). I am trying to say, and feel like I am a lone voice in a world gone mad, that it is better if people are awake, alert, competent and yes, reasonably rapid when they're driving. Being half asleep at the lights is symptomatic of not being in control of the activity you're undertaking, ie driving.
I still haven't responded to yesterday's hilarious and hysterical post, see near the top... the Prozac has kicked in today, but I still read it and chuckle.
I don't even drive that quickly myself... I just don't like mimsers and plodders and central lane charlies and and and and... : ) Dieselconvert, I am sure we are not that different in outlook... hope so anyway.
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>>I don't even drive that quickly myself...
and
>>Driving, unless I have very much missed the point, is a way of gettingfrom A to B as quickly as possible...
So you have both missed the point and don't follow your own advice. Which county do you live in; I'll stay away from its roads.
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Sigh.... "as quickly as possible", within the limits or very close to them! I mean by "I don't drive that quickly myself" that I don't exceed the limits (my views on which are a separate issue) by a vast margin. "My goodness (blashphemous comment amended), he occasionally exceeds the limit".... Badwolf, do you reckon I am going to get strung up again?!
I give up. OK, let's all not concentrate, drive at 4mph, start braking in Cambridge to stop by Norwich. I thought this was a motoring enthusiast's forum not a meeting of Knitters Monthly.
Before I go away, probably for quite a while, as this has irked me somewhat to be honest, let me say I like driving fast but safely. I abhor bad driving and by bad I mean too fast, too slow or plain uninterested driving (and thanks to Avant for the grammar lesson on another thread, I NEARLY wrote disinterested). And as I hope I have proved in one of my comments above, I am sympathetic to learners.... and don't go screaming up to junctions braking at the last minute.
I don't mind an argument, but I hate this hysyterical "oh he must be insane!!! stay away from Cheshire... he'll kill us all". Very unlikely. I just don't feel compelled to pretend to be anything other than an enthusiast.
I am a pedant, but I feel out-pedanted.
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SNIPQUOTE!I am in rant mode today! : )
Don't get you going? Don't get me going...
I strongly disagree with raising the age to 21, I'm not even going to bother arguing about that. How often do you see people being hesitant at green lights? We've all been learners, and there were moments when almost all of us will have struggled to pull away, and in some cases probably stalled. By the time learners pass their tests they are IMHO pretty competant. I would say a much more common problem would be people pulling away before lights are green, which is often done by experienced drivers. A large number of people don't seem to know what to do at an amber light either.
Braking in plenty of time is a very good way of driving, and most knowlegable drivers would probably agree with me. They may brake a little early sometimes, but they are learners, and they are learning the correct thought process, which is the important thing. The majority of experienced drivers brake far too late. Braking early gives better fuel consumption, a smoother ride, less mechanical stress/wear, extra safety, and can give a more progressive drive. Yes, by braking earlier you can quite often make more progress.
What's wrong with feeding they wheel? What steering technique should they be taught, or should the instructor just say 'turn it'? Everybody seems to think that pull-push is a very good steering technique for normal (ie. public roads) driving. It is the same technique that the Police have been using for many years, and they still teach it. If it's good enough for the Police then I think it's more than good enough for everybody else.
One thing I do agree with is teaching people to drive, rather than just passing the test. When I was learning, about 5/6 years ago my instructor did teach me a more than just passing the test. After passing the test I still had a long way to go, but I could keep up with the traffic, and was reasonably safe. You will fail a test if you do not make enough progress. Actually, a learner who is ready to pass the test will probably make slightly better progress than your average driver. On an NSL road they will be expected to 60 mph if it is safe to do so. At the moment it is illegal for learners to use the motorway, so I can't see that becoming part of the test any time soon. However, I believe the Pass Plus includes motorway driving.
I'm not sure whether this was a wind up, but you've really wound me up!
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Go back and READ, ie read PROPERLY what I wrote.
If you can tell me EXACTLY where I advocate late braking, then I will eat any piece of millinery you care to throw at me.
"If it's good enough for the police".... er sorry, I disagree. I am NOT trying to wind you up, you just happen to have different points of vview. Isn't that the point of hang on, where are we, a discussion forum? Or are you one of these who doesn't agree with debate?
You strongly disagree with raising the age to 21, so you're not going to even bother arguing. OK, so I have no idea why you disagree so strongly do I? Brilliantly done... that's told me! : )
So you agree with the main gist of my argument, which is about teaching people to drive, not just pass a test.... so we don't disagree that much do we? I think 21, you think 17.. I think feeding the wheel is Cholmondoley-Warner, you don't. I brake in a reasonable timescale, and so do you... I just think that the way people are TAUGHT whilst learning is too cautious. Sorry! I didn;t make any point at all about learners at traffic lights, I am always generous to them and would imagine you are too. I think people who've passed their test should reasonably be expected to go when the lights turn green, must be my Mediterranean heritage....
Still wound up? We can always go into the virtual car park if you want. I am joking, by the way....
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