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Appear to be two separate faults but not hearing the first noise can't say for sure.The engine failure appears to be engine running on sump oil but what caused this merits investigation-appears high milage for three year old-was vehicle being used for commercial purposes?
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Hi jc2
High Mileage?? This is actually my wifes car, got 4 kids, all boys, all at different schools, all play football for different teams in different towns, always use the car for European holidays . Thats why we got a diesel, thats why we always get it serviced. I run a Ford Galaxy tdi with my business that has covered 196,400 miles, never even had a misfire.
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The Peugeot dealer had been servicing and repairing the car for a year as no local Fiat dealer.
I went for proffessional advice not opinion, the car was put on a ramp with an apprentice inside revving and stopping and starting the engine with the mechanic underneath, the guy telling me he can feel vibration in the turbo.
I know nothing about these HDI engines or turbos or anything, I thought that if the turbo failed I would just lose a bit of power, but since this has happened and I have been looking at these types of forums, and the no. of people who have had similar catastrophic turbo failures, I feel qualified to advise anybody with even the slightest rumbling bearing type noise that could be coming from anywhere near the turbo to switch it off quick and not to restart it until it is sorted.
Surely this is the advice I should have been given, and surely I should have some redress on the dealer???
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Sorry to hear of your misfortune,
"do you think I have any redress against the dealer"
None at all, not in the slightest. Not even a glimmer. The garage did nothing, charged you nothing, and in doing so were not bound by any contract.
Unless of course, they did charge you for the initial inspection?
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Hi TVM
I know I am clutching at straws here, and no I did not pay for the inspection, but by the same token would not have bulked at being charged 1/2 hour for diagnosis when the repairs had been carried out.
Would you have advised someone to drive off and come back tomorrow if you had felt vibration and heard noise coming from a turbo on one of these engines????
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As it went bang after 1/2 mile you were very lucky (?) that you actually made it to the garage. If it had gone bang on the ramps would you have still thought it was the garages fault?
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Seven thousand-odd quid for a new engine - is that a misprint?
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Hi Mike Hannon, no misprint, try finding a 2.2 HDI engine with code 4HW from a scrapper, I scoured the world, the only one I found was in a breakers yard in Birmingham, they wanted £3650 + delivery, no warranty. then you have to get the old one out, the new one in recode the ECU (whatever that means) etc. etc. etc.
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Hi geoff1248,
Dont feel very lucky. If it had gone bang on the ramp then that would have been that, the fact that it did not and I was then advised to drive it again makes me feel that I was given bad advice.
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Well it wasn't the best advice in the world, but thats all it was advice - they didn't guarantee that it would be okay to drive. I wouldn't have sent someone out though in a vehicle with a grumbling turbo as it is only going to get worse not better and there was a chance it would get worse before you got back to the garage the next day.
What you have experienced is the extreme consequences of turbo failure. It is rare than when a turbo breaks and it starts to run on its own engine oil to destruction. Normally the loss of power, the plumes of smoke and the whistling are enough to make most people call it a day and switch the engine off.
As for your predicament then I understand your fustration, the only thing that you can do is persue the garage for some kind of contribution towards the repair, but I'm not sure that you will have a (legal) leg to stand on. Good luck.
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I've not seen anything in this thread that states it was turbo failure-it certainly could be.
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>>I've not seen anything in this thread that states it was turbo failure-it certainly could be.
After re-reading the post you are right, nobody has stated it was turbo failure. I suppose I was reading between the lines and to me it sounds exactly like turbo failure. My guess as to what happened (and I am fairly confident in my diagnosis) is that the turbo was on its way out, then on the journey away from the garage it has failed completely, and starting pumping its oil feed straight back through into the engines air intake. Thus it has then began to run on its own oil, rev uncontrollably and basically run itself to destruction. Well that is my opinion based on what the OP has said.
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Hi Simon
It was definately turbo failure, I have the old turbo in my posession as I have to return it to the supplier of the new one, the bearing is completely shot, and there are only 2 or 3 vanes left on the impeller thing, the rest of them are either bursting through the intercooler or are lodged inside the engine. You are right that the turbo was on its way out, that is my point, should the mechanic have let me drive it away? he himself said that the turbo bearings were shot!!!!
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there are only 2 or 3 vanes left on the impeller thing therest of them are either bursting through the intercooler or are lodged inside the engine.
They were possibly already in the engine prior to your dealer visit, in which case you were doomed anyway I'm sorry to say.
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Hi simon again, just reread your message, there was no power loss, no whistling, no smoke, just a grumbling noise, sounded a bit like a sticky starter motor, that is why I went to the garage, the noise started as I was dropping one of the kids to school, so I popped into the garage which was just around the corner. Obviously now I know what can happen I will never ever ever drive a turbo car with a grumbling noise ever again
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I don't think you have a leg to stand on. The mechanic offered informal verbal advice in good faith. There is no record of what was said. If the car has proper service records your best bet would be to try to get some goodwill from Fiat.
What was the car worth before the failure? Is it worth it to you to repair it? If not, bung it on eBay and get something else. You've been unlucky, not much you can do about it.
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Sorry to hear this Steve....! As was suggested Fiat are the best bet, but I am surprised no-one noticed the initial signs at your last service?
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>>Hi simon again, just reread your message, there was no power loss, no whistling, no smoke,
>>just a grumbling noise..
Yes I realise that you didn't suffer anything else other than the grumbling, you were kind of unlucky in that respect. My point was that normally when a turbo goes, you get the power loss, smoke and/or the whistling too and that is a sign that something major is wrong. Your case on the other hand meant that your car had a 'major' fault looming but wasn't displaying symtoms worthy of it seriousness.
Back to the garage man and his misguided opinion - I can see on one hand why he may not have thought that it was not as serious as it was. It wasn't displaying anything other than this grumble and he obviously thought it would be okay until the next day. The daft thing is that he had diagnosed the fault and common sense/experience should have told him that it could turn nasty very quickly, but I think that you will have very little comeback on them. Try all you can and push them as hard as you can but I fear that you won't get very far.
All in all you have been unlucky in the fact that it ran itself to destruction after displaying only the grumbling noise, rather than going pop and pluming smoke (without running itself to destruction)etc on the way home from the garage.
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Hi Nick, you are probably right, should have bunged it on ebay, but these cars appear to be worth diddly when 3/4 years old when they are working.
But picture this one minute you are driving your nice smooth powerful car (£20+k new, just finished paying for it), you are listening to a cd, you use the voice control to ask the sat nav to direct you home, the kids are in the back watching a dvd, then bang, a failure of one part of the engine renders the whole thing useless and worthless and you have to consider selling it for scrap, that is not right.
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Stevie, What sort of service history does it have? regarding oil change frequency ect, type of oil, semi or full synthetic?
Sorry to ask, but did the turbo always get the chance to cool down after a hot run before switching off? Not meaning to be offensive in any way with that question.
Just wondering whether its suffered turbo bearing failure despite optimum servicing and usage
and thinking that sort of info may be helpful to others with the same engine.
Regards
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The grumbling noise that the mechanics heard could quite easily have been the bearings of the turbo on their way out. With bearings there is no way of telling when they will being to give too much play to the rotor. Just one-half af a millimetre extra play in the shaft will have caused the vanes to knock against the casing. Total destruction is virtually instantaneous.
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slightly off topic....
is it worth buying a turbo charged car???
forums are full of these stories involving turbo cars...one of the answers above stated about letting the turbo cool down after a long run..does a dealer tell u this?? i dont let my normally aspirated car cool down before i turn it off.
If turbo cars really need this cooling period (i dont doubt it) then surely the dealers should hi-light this very much..not just a sentence in the manual
Shame about the engine blowing.Have you tried finding a scrap car like yours and transplanting the engine...or a recon engine.
As always a main dealer will quote you for everything that could possibly need fixing..try a specialist in your area
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The only time a turbo-charged car-petrol or diesel needs a cooling-off period is when you come down from a a high speed/high load condition straight to a stop.Even on the autoroutes most service station entrances are sufficiently tortuous for the turbo to cool.Off the motorway,just driving round town at 30mph/50kph cools the system sufficiently for immediate turn-off.
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All three of turbo equipped vehicles are simmered, its become a habit regardless of earlier use, I always allow the car a few seconds of tick over before moving off as well on cold starts.
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Allowing the oil to get to the turbo when you start is most important for turbo life.Also keep the oil level to the full mark on the dipstick so that there is always plenty of oil-the lower the oil temperature the better.All Ford turbo-charged cars-petrol & diesel-are fitted with oil coolers for example.
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there is no way to win in this situation.
the cost of the replacement parts and labour is more than the small claims court limit so the prosecution costs will be enourmous.
very bad luck and know how you feel as many years ago my nearly new 405 had 2 new gearboxes and one new engine in the space of a year and very nearly bankrupted me.
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I don't think you have any chance at all of claiming against the garage.
The car is scrap and virtually worthless - someone may buy it via Ebay.
All turbo cars should be allowed a short period of idle - after start-up and before shut-down. Regular oil changes are critical.
I am not too keen on turbo's - seen too many blow up. They also tend to be really awkward to work on. I have changed a couple of turbos and its a real knuckle-grazing business - stressful too, because most of the fastners will be siezed.
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I use Mobil 1 and change it and the oil filter at half the manufacturers interval, in the hope that this will eliminate turbo bearing failure.
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I am not too keen on turbo's - seen too many blow up. They also tend to be really awkward to work on. I have changed a couple of turbos and its a real knuckle-grazing business - stressful too because most of the fastners will be siezed.
Totally agree with Aprilia on the above statement. Exactly why I always favour medium sized engined normally aspirated Mercs & BM's for my own use. I was recently fortunate enough to own a W140 4.2 litre S Class Benz, that would still manage nearly 30 mpg on a run - the same MPG that I was getting from a Saab 9000 aero (full turbo) which frankly I could not stand one bit; incidentally the previous owner of the saab had needed a brand new engine at 75k due to Turbo failure - fortunately for him it was under warranty.
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Many high quality turbo's now have water cooled bearing housings to help prevent oil being cooked by heat soak-back from the turbine wheel and housing; after high power running it is still recommended to allow a period of idling before stopping the engine.
For more detailed recommendations see www.holset.co.uk/files/4_3_5-operating%20procedure...p
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Locating a another engine is not as difficult as you think just buy a secondhand C5 with the 2.2 hdi engine in it plenty around for about 2 to 3k.But there is also quite a few of these people carriers with Cit or Pug badges kicking around at around 5k.I also bet there is a back street engine builder who would rebuild this motor for a third of what you have been quoted.
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No money changed hands= no contract = no redress.
madf
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Thanks for all the comments and bits of advice, The car was always serviced and the oil changed at the correct times, (I assume the correct oil as dealer serviced) I had no idea that you have to let the car idle after a long run, the day before this happened the car did an 8 hour trip through France, may be that had something to do with it, but it has done plenty of 8 hour runs before.
The engines from a Citroen C5 and Peugeot 406 although being 2.2 HDI are not the same as the ones fitted to the people carriers, they have differnt codes and have many things in different places, that is the first thing I went for. Try finding a secondhand 2.2HDI with engine code 4HW!!!
The dealer has now agreed to do all the work for £400 labour, and let me source the parts as long as they are new or reconditioned, I managed to buy a brand new engine that was delivered to a dealer and the order subsequently cancelled £1500, brand new turbocharger £580, reconditioned injectors £670, I think about £600 in other bits, am having the clutch changed whilst it is all in bits.
So all in all I should be out of this for about £4k, still not worth it but too late now, I definately will not be having a car with an HDI or DCI engine again.
I am just staggered that manufacturers can get away with building something that can be totally destroyed by the failure of just one bearing, apparently without warning.
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You have done ok there should last a good long time now,just couple of points a c5 engine will fit no problems providing you had a doner engine for some of the brackets which you had and the majority of PSA hdi's can and do mega miles before they give any problems providing they are serviced correctly.
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Hi Andy Bairstow, Just wondered if you actually know of someone or have yourself used the C5 engine (code 4HX) in either a Citroen C8, Peugeot 807 or Fiat Ulysees as I was told by more than just a few people that whilst it was theoretically possible to use a 4HX engine instead of the 4HW, the turbo layout and pipe runs were different, the water pump was somehow different and a number of sensors were in different places, if it is a fact that you can just swap the brackets and be away, I will be real niffed cos I know that these are readily available, I was offered a 4HX from a Peugeot 406 2.2 HDI (2003, 36,000, service book still in the car) c/w turbo, injectors and everything else for £1000.
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See the threads on here about Pug 306's that throw a rod through a block, and even 1 case on here of a Honda doing exactly the self same thing.
A car engine is spinning around at high revs (even on tickover) with a lot of momentum, and lots of moving parts. It really does not take much for it all to go awry pretty quickly, with terminal results.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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I think you have done ok there Stevie. On a positive note, if your mpv has good bodywork you should get a lot more years out of it - unless this has spoilt your enjoyment of the car and makes you want to get rid of it after a suitable interval. Best of luck with the engine swap anyway.
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Fitting another engine in the car even if the cost is £3000 will not worth it.
Even a slight problem in used/recon engine can screw up the ECU.
Better scrap the car and buy another one. You should get similar sized car for that money.
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Hi TVM I appreciate what you are saying, but, cars nowadays have sensors everywhere, you know the outside temperature, inside temeprature, water, fuel, doors open or shut, tyre pressures etc etc, Our car even produces a log of all its faults, it can send an SMS showing its whereabouts and give a fault code for the breakdown people, surely they could put a sensor in the turbo to measure the play in the bearings or the pressure of the oil in the turbo, that way you would at least have a clue as to when it is likely to give up, if you chose to ignore the warnings at least you could start saving up for when it does give in.
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It wont tell you if the cam belt will break. Thats terminal in the blink of an eye.
Yes they could monitor everything if required. You couldnt afford to buy the resulting engine tho.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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To be honest, it sounds as if the turbo has done well to get to 80,000 or so, if its never had a cool down period after those long continental runs and has perhaps not been on a full synthetic.
Thought all handbooks carried the advice to let the engine run for a while after a high speed/load run?
Sorry to say it, but perhaps the answer is there,
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Oops, mine must have done exceptionally well then - 93k so far and "never had a cool down period after those long continental runs and has perhaps not been on a full synthetic."
"long continental runs" - and with a caravan on the back!
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Phil
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Didn't wish to sound dismissive of stevies problem - I think he has been very, very unlucky, and I sympathise - wish him the best of luck sorting the problem.
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Phil
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Hi Oilrag
If the turbo did well in the Fiat to get to 80,000 or so, then its a complete miracle or maybe divine intervention that has allowed the turbo in my Ford Galaxy to make it to 196,000 and the one in my Sprinter van to make it to 183,000 all have been driven the same and all have been serviced as per the manufacturers reccomendations.
Can't say that I have ever driven 8 hours non stop at 80mph then given the engine a quick rev before switching off, it does'nt happen like that does it, even at a service station on the motorway you still have to slow down for at least 1/2 mile then wait for a free pump, but, having said that I will be more aware in future.
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I agree about the cam belt, but you are told to change these at regular intervals, surely excessive vibration in the turbo from worn bearings is not difficult to monitor, as for not being able to afford it!!! thats a laugh when something like this happens.
They should may be do away with some of the other useles things like voice control etc
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It's a fairly simple task to fit an oil reservoir to a turbo, which ensures a feed of oil to a turbo when the oil pressure drops. I used them on big turbo'd truck engines and large marine diesels. About £100 plus fitting. Accusump are a mfr.
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I'm finding it hard to believe that the turbo would cause this damage. I know of people who work in the automotive industry that play with these types of scenarios. A failed turbo or disconnected turbo in this case would create significant power loss not a bust engine.
Turbo's can and do fail more often in a diesel car but not with catastrophic problems. I'm no mechanic but it sounds like the timing belt has gone on your car. If this goes it can be fatal for the engine in an instant. The fact that you mention the car revving itself and your turning it off and that the valves were stuck suggests to me the timing of the engine was lost.
I'm sorry i just dont buy the turbo thing at all. The vibration on the turbo was probably a worn belt. Did you have the belt changed at 60k miles? I think i read that your car has done 80k miles?
VW are now suggesting a belt change every 40k miles due to the catastrophic consequences of failure. God knows why more manufacturers dont use chains, even in their dirty, smelly and noisy PD engines.
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Old skool, trust me the turbo did the damage, I did not believe it was possible until it happened to me, I then started looking at forums like this one (am getting hooked on it now). I now know that this has happened to literally hundreds may be thousands or even tens of thousands of people, especially on the new common rail deisels, that is my whole point, should the manufacturers be allowed to sell these things, that in the blink of an eye destroy themselves with hardly any warning, I now know to never run one of these engines if you suspect a problem from the turbo, I do not think that it is common knowledge amongst drivers of cars and vans fitted with these engines though. May be a health warning on the windscreen, cos when these things start revving uncontrolably before going bang its not good for your nervous system.
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> even tens of thousands of people,
> should the manufacturers be allowed to sell these things
I can understand you are annoyed and upset. This is now however starting to smack of paranoia!
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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TVM you are right, becoming fixated with this, even paranoid, will stop thinking about it now. Tried, but 10 seconds later am thinking about it again, oh my god, is that paranoia.
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This isn't limited to newer common rail diesels by any means, it was a known fault on old Landrover 2.5 TD engines for example. Even old generation non-turbo diesel engines can do it if enough sump oil gets into the combustion chamber. A friend of a friend of mine had it happen to an 80's Astramax non-turbo diesel. You have just been very unlucky, its not a particularly common occurrence on the HDi.
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My turbo diesel(not Peugeot) has done plenty of continental high speed runs and is on it's recommended oil-which is semi-synthetic-no problems and whilst not switched off immediately after a run,I only idle it for a few seconds.Turbos run to such small tolerances and at speeds upto 200,000rpm. that the slghtest wear in the bearing is fatal.You won't get excessive vibration-it will work or not work.
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Oldschool
Turbo bearings fail causing the seals to fail also. The oil feed to the turbo leaks into the inlet side of the engine and the engine runs on its own sump oil. Turning off the engine makes no difference as the engine syphons the sump dry if left to its own devices.
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Plenty of non-turbo engines fail by swallowing their own oil;usually the rubber hose between the air-cleaner and manifold collapses,puts depression on the crankcase system,sucks up oil and the engine runs away.I suspected,at first,that was what happened here as it can also happen on a turbo engine.
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Thanks for that jc2, you sound knowledgeable, what happens if the turbo fails on a petrol engine?
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A gasoline engine won't run on it's own oil;it'll just lose power if it is a turbo failure or start pumping out smoke if a seal goes.
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it happened to a friends combine harverster, when parked up and in gear. The initial heat was caused by a fire caused by someone doing some welding. Ever tried to stop a runaway combine?
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I read often, only post occasionally
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Stevie, Has Peugeot/Fiat said anything about the turbo`s on these engines in general. I mean is there a known vulnerability?
I just want to say too, how i sympathise with your situation. Its easy to overlook that as interest starts to focus on the cause and I regret my above post which retrospectively seems quite blunt.
Regards
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Hi oilrag, dont worry about being blunt, but in answer to your question from what I have learned or is it learnt about this, is that there is a question on the reccomended service intervals, alot of people are saying 12,000 between services are too much, there are a number of people trying to take action against Renault because of turbo failures, I believe that the Renault Laguna DCI's engine warranty will be extended to 5 years or 100k, if the vehicle has been serviced properly and with original parts in attempt to increase its second hand value because of the number of failures and subsequent drop in value.
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I see now how it could happen and its very unfortunate
I'm assuming the engine carries on pumping oil into the turbo after failure and with a broken inlet seal the oil leaks into the inlet and seizes the injectors. As turbo oil relies on gravity to drain back into the sump and not by the use of a pump.
I'm wondering whether the failure was caused by a sticky EGR valve in this case, after a long journey. I am a believer of idling a turbo after heavy use to dissipate any inertia. But these days the bearings used are not babbit bearings which can sieze or melt and the quality of oils will not coke. Just a bit of idle can cool the bearing compartment sufficiently and this is usually effective with 15 seconds or up to a minute on larger turbos and long drives. However it seems that a dodgy or clogged EGR value would prevent the turbo's from cooling correctly or poor quality or dirty oil was present or both.
:(
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I'm assuming the engine carries on pumping oil into the turbo after failure and with a broken inlet seal the oil leaks into the inlet and seizes the injectors. As turbo oil relies on gravity to drain back into the sump and not by the use of a pump.
The engine runs on using its own oil as fuel, if large amounts of oil enter the combustion chambers at once they can hydraulic and wreck the engine.
The engine will runaway at max revs and damage itself as it revs beyond its designed use.
The turbo spins at max revs and hits the side of the housing and disintegrates, fractured pieces enter the engine causing damage.
Any or all the above could have happened in this case.
The injectors were seized because they can and its unlikelly to be connected to the blow up
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I thought that engines had rev limiters to stop this very thing; obviously not.
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I thought that engines had rev limiters to stop this very thing; obviously not.
They do have rev limiters, but all they do is limit the supply of diesel. The problem here is that the engine at this point begins to run on its own lubricating oil, so limiting the supply of diesel has little or no effect on engine speed.
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which is why you cant turn it off - you have to put it in gear and stall it
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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------which is why you cant turn it off - you have to put it in gear and stall it
ever tried it?
I can tell you that it is not as straight forward as putting it in gear and stalling it, (may be if it happened again though, god forbid)
There was a crunching noise followed by knocking, I thought it was my car so I switched engine off, when the noise did not stop I looked around to see whether I was next to a tractor or something, by the time I realised that it was my engine that was screaming , despite the fact that I had the key in my hand it was all over, bang, 3 or 4 seconds, not alot more, by the time I stalled it the car was engulfed in smoke. Made quite a stir amongst the locals, lots of knowing looks on their faces, probably thinking there goes another HDi engine, hope hes got deep pockets!
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Diesel car carried stories in the nineties of Prima engined Maestros self destructing on lubricating oil - vulnerable if overfilled.
OP has been desperately unlucky, even if failure to "simmer" is a factor. However, if he can get the car on the road again at the more realistic prices now being quoted he'll still be spending a lot less than the depreciation on a new(ish) equivalent replacement MPV. Having had a major fail (cambelt on HDI Xantia) I'd recommend allowing lots of shakedown time after it's back on the road; as somebody says above there will likley be issues with electrical and other ancilliary connections and possibly other areas of consequential damage still to come to light.
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----- I'd recommend allowing lots of shakedown time after it's back on the road; as somebody says above there will likley be issues with
----electrical and other ancilliary connections and possibly other areas of consequential damage still to come to light.
What do i have to do then?? Supposed to be going to Portugal in this car on 11th July, should I just use it alot before hand, although not going to have that much time, cos car is not going to be ready til 3rd/4th July.
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What do i have to do then?? Supposed to be going to Portugal in this car on 11th July should I just use it alot before hand although not going to have that much time cos car is not going to be ready til 3rd/4th July.
Frankly, in my experience of major engine rebuilds over the years (which is quite a bit) I think you are cutting it very fine. It only takes one minor problem or one small part to be out of stock and you'll not make your deadline. A major rebuild (new turbo, engine and injectors - and intercooler?) will invariably throw up the odd problem.
If I were you I would line up another car as 'back up' - can you borrow a car from friends/relatives, or even the dealer doing the work?
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Can't you use your Galaxy??
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I know this isn't going to add much to what has already been said, but here goes anyway...
The mechs advice was good - he could tell that the turbo was in bad shape and likely to fail soon. He advised you not to go too far in the car, I think it was just bad luck that the engine failed as and when it did. Predicting a mechancial failure is difficult.
My Dad's Pug 405 is about to die in a similiar fashion, the turbo whines and there are clouds of smoke out the back. Lucky for my Dad the warning signs are little more obvious. The turbo seals are failing, I took the intercooler pipe off the other day and it was dripping with engine oil.
that old pug is heading for the scrap yard, it's been a good car and even though it has no value it seems a shame to scrap as it's in great nick otherwise. I know your car is much newer and worth more, but sadly it seems that scrapping or selling for spares/repair is the best option.
Sorry to hear what's happened, that's real bad luck and I have to say I would be gutted if I was in your position.
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Bad luck and sympathies etc.
Mechanic gave good advice imo, difficult to say how/when any major fail is likely to happen etc.
But as for Portugal on 11th July? I wouldn't even entertain it. Find another car I suggest.
There will be enough problems sourcing parts, fitting parts, replacing parts etc and then road testing car. What about running it in and an oil change and inspection after 500/1000 miles? If i was doing the work I would want chance to inspect it regularly for first 1000, 2000 and 3000 miles or offer no guarantees.
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