First of all I'm sure that the BRs would join to offer our deepest sympathies.
In our firm - which has around 40 employees across several Offices as well as additional part time staff, situations like you find yourself in are handled on a case by case basis, the norm being for a week or so off with pay with no penalty to the bereaved and then negotiable. This has caused problems in the past with people (including the "Directors", the Partners)having to step into the breach now and again, but it is still an old fashioned family firm IYKWIM. Our policy is based on the presumption that we value our staff and want to keep them and there is an obvious payoff in staff loyalty.
Turning to your situation, you are quite obviously stressed out by the whole thing and the question is you giving the company your best whilst you are feeling like this. As far as I am aware there is no bereavement leave only a compassionate leave policy that varies from firm to firm. I would suggest get a sick note if you feel stressed enough for it to affect your work The last thing you want is for this to become an issue now as it will effect the memories of this time. I am glad to read that your accounts staff also double as GPs this must save your firm countless thousands. How can they say whether you are medically fit ???????????????. (sorry ranting). It is an unfortunate fact of life that we experience the death of a loved one....it affects people in different ways...see your doctor.
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Lawnmowers
My electric Flymo has given up the ghost - this is about the third electric Flymo I have had in about 7 years.
I am now thinking of possibly getting a petrol lawnmower, not necessarily Flymo. Has anyone out there got experience of using both? Which one is best? I have 2 lawns, front and back, probably about 120 square metres in total.
If I go for petrol what features should I go for? Has anyone been able to repair a Flymo electric mower without contacting an approved repairer?
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Steve - words cannot begin to compensate for what you have been through. I just hope that you don\'t have to go through too much more. I\'m sorry that I can\'t offer any practical assisstance here, but I do hope that you get this sorted soon.
All the best
Rob
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This is not an area of law I know anything about, really, nor am I able to offer anything more than my sympathies, Steve. I can't see how your firm is legally obliged to do any more than they have, except possibly taking any medical issues on board.
However, I cannot begin to comprehend the insensitivity and stupidity of accusing you of being on the take because your mind may be elsewhere at a time like this. Apart from anything, they hired you because you were the best candidate who applied for your job - and they're willing to annoy you that much to make some jumped up little HR clerk's paperwork easier.
Idiots.
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Thanks for the responses so far, and Rob, don't worry about BobbyG adding his sub-thread - that's what this thread is for!
I think my main complaint here is the fact they have rejected a claim for sick-pay that seems to meet the criteria laid down in the contracts of employment we have. If anyone can point me in the direction of somewhere I can find the legalities of this it would be appreciated. Not wishing to belittle what she felt at the time, but the accounts person who refused me any leave or sickness herself took over 3 weeks off on the sick after her father died as well as taking time off beforehand on the sick to look after him, so as you can probably imagine I'm rather upset at the double-standards employed here. In some ways I should have expected to get this treatment though - one person who has now retired was not even allowed a single day leave when his mother died and his sick note from the doctor was refused as apparently the reason was not acceptable. However, others in the company have weeks off in similar situations. In some ways it saddens me that the company does operate in such as way as at one time I did believe they actually cared for all of their employees, but it is obvious now that if you aren't the type that is allowed to get away with anything then you aren't allowed any leeway at all. I especially agree with PU that compassion in cases such as this has its reward in the reciprocated staff loyalty. I am amazed sometimes that the MD and his daughter wonder at the attitude of some of their staff when you see what they have to put up with.
I must admit I'm tempted to take your advice, PU, and see the doctor about going on the sick as I really am struggling at the moment, but I somehow feel guilty at taking time off this way when I can struggle on and manage somehow. And, TBH, I wouldn't even know how to go about getting a sicknote - it would seem wrong to go with the object of asking for one and I'd probably understate the symptoms to the degree where the doctor wouldn't think it necessary to give me one.
Thanks again for the sympathy etc.
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Steve,
Don't feel guilty about it....There ar emany unresolved feelings at a time like this....guilt is one of them....sick note can't be simpler, go see your doc, tell him what you're feeling, tell him about the trouble in work and take time out.
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Stress is an illness. They are risking serious punishment if they even suggest that you may not take time off for it. However, as recommended, get yourself along to a doctor right now. If this gets silly, you will need his help.
It is extremely unlikely that you are entitled to any more than one day\'s paid leave. Normally you would be allowed some unpaid leave, but even then not much.
The attending of the funeral is a red herring. You attended the funeral for one day, check the Ps&Ps to be sure, but you should receive that.
The second issue is being off sick. And you were off sick, compassionate leave is unlikely to apply.
You will be allowed n days off sick wihtout a doctor\'s note. Immediately register those days as off sick now.
If there are excess days, then explain on your visit to the doctor, he would be able to give you a note and/or letter if he is convinced. If he will not, then you will have to take them as holiday or unpaid leave.
You can also explain to your company that you were *told* that stress didn\'t count as sickness, and therefore you felt forced to come to work even though you felt unfit to do so; because you did so, you now feel worse than you did before. If they have half a brain, that should scare the living daylights out of them.
However, and I said this before when you had your internet usage issue, there is something more behind this;
I don\'t know how long I could take off in this circumstance, but I suspect a week or two without penalty would be no issue.
The difference is, perhaps, a difference in regard for the employee. Only you can know whether this is a lack of regard for all employees or whether you have opped up on the radar for some reason. I respectfully suggest you consider the latter.
Was it me, I would regard my career there as done and find somewhere else to be pdq before I needed to take any legal action and/or argument about references and/or discussion about terms on which you would leave might begin. I suspect that you will be facing that at some point.
Also, was it me, I\'d be trying to work out what, if anything, I did wrong or unwisely to get myself into this situation.
You seem to be frequently the object of mistreatment from that company or people within it. You really need to sit down and objectively consider why that might be. It is entirely responsible that you are working wiht a clueless bunch of muppets, but it is perhaps also possible that you are not managing the situation(s) appropriately.
I have no idea which, only you can work that out.
Finally, and I seriously advise against legal action, if you do decide to go that way a CAB is unlikely to be able to help. Neither, I\'m sorry to say, is the Backroom. You need a lawyer specialising in employment law. .. employment-law.co.uk is a starting point, but it very much depends on the area you are in.
The reason legal action can make your next job tough to get, and you are unlikely to get enough money to make that worthwhile. Even if you went for wrongful and/or constructive, 50 grand would be top whack unless you are some kind of ICH.
Mark.
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Mark, Thanks for a long and informative reply.
To try and clarify a few things:
The funeral - we are only allowed a day off for this if it is immediate family - parents or siblings. I'm not sure on this, but I believe the contract does not even actually mention a spouse. I accepted I'd probably have to take this as a holiday or as sick depending on the circumstances.
Time off sick - I didn't actually mention taking the time as sick leave until I found I'd been messed around over the day for the funeral. I was initially prepared to let them tell me what they were prepared to offer and while a day for the funeral and a few hours for going up to see her before she passed away wasn't exactly the height of generosity I wasn't in the mood to argue so was going to accept it. However, when this was taken away I sort of decided that if they were going to be unreasonable then I should maybe stop being overly-reasonable. Our limit on time off sick is 7 days, although if we are off more than this we have to supply a sick note by the 6th day. (Yes, I also wonder how we are supposed to know 2 days beforehand if we will still be off in 2 days time, or how we are to produce a sick note, for example, on a Sunday)
I have been told I can't register any time off sick as they do not accept what I claim as a reason to be off sick under the circumstances. Also, as I had filled in a holiday form to cover the 5 days I was prepared to accept at holiday before I was told the rest would also have to be holiday, I suspect it will be difficult to get the record changed anyway, especially as they seem unwilling to even discuss the matter.
I'm not sure in my own mind if all 7 (working) days could be counted as sick through stress. Certainly I was not in the frame of mind to be doing work, even without considering factors such as being unable to sleep properly. However, as one reason for staying away from work was to help my mother get over her stress and take some of the burden off her, it may be difficult to realistically claim this. I'd have been happy really with the Thursday afternoon, the Friday that she passed away and the day of the funeral and take the other 4 days as holiday simply to minimise the hassle all-round.
Regarding the general hassle at work, I must admit I do sometimes wonder what I have done wrong myself. I suspect it's not that I've actually done anything that has upset people, I suspect it is more than no-one in the place really understands what I do and maybe thinks that I'm messing around simply as they don't appreciate what my job involves. In the case of some people, I also suspect that they take the fact that I don't bite back when pushed as an opportunity to hassle me without fear of recrimination. There are a couple of other people in the company who suffer similar treatment. There is a lot of favouratism goes on in the company and unfortunately I'm not in the right group to get the benefits from this. It's highly unprofessional really as everyone should be treated equally, but that doesn't seem any way to stop it.
I would agree with you that legal action should be the very last resort and at the moment I'm not really thinking about it. I'd like to know where I stand in law so I can present my own case and see if that helps though. And as for staying with the company, while I'm not going to jump at the first job offered, I am actively seeking a position elsewhere and have been for a few months now. Unfortunately there seems to be a very limited demand for electronic engineers in this area....
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Buy a Mountfield - put it like this they have better engines and handle better. I've had one for the last ten years at least and has outlived any Flymo product I had. They can take abuse !
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I really hope this doesn't turn up in the wrong place, it's a reply for Bobby G - re: lawnmowers.
Mr H has had a flymo and chucked it once it broke down (then again, he's not technical) He's also had Mountfield and Honda petrol driven lawnmowers and thinks they are both far superior to Flymos (for what that's worth, it's a personal opinion) Both also proved very reliable and trouble free.
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Steve: Deepest sympathies on your loss.
You now have to look after your health as a top priority. Minimise any activity that is likely to cause you stress.
As for your Employer, if it is the same one you have written about before (the one whose daughter seemed to pick on you for edsurfing HJ's site), the best you can do is take the days-off as annual leave, and start looking for a new job asap.
You need a less stressful workplace and your best bet would be to find somewhere that is Union organised - ideally in the Government sector.
Good luck.
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eMBe..
I was thinking about the Public Sector's policies when I was reading the original thread - from what I've heard their HR arrangments are far more humane....
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PU / eMBe - I think you are right about the public sector - both my mother and sister work for local goverment (Mother in a library, sister in a council pension department) and they both got very reasonable and understanding treatment from their bosses. As I say, it just disappoints me that when some people in the company are allowed to get away with so much they can't show any compassion and aren't even interested in hearing the circumstances.
PU - I'll try the doctor, although that is yet another moan with the company - any visits during work hours have to be taken as a half-day holiday. The argument a few people brought up that you only go to the doctor if you are sick therefore they should count as sickness not absence brought no sympathy.
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Steve,
Are you in an Union ?
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PU,
No, the only union at work is for the shop-floor workers only and even then membership is 'discouraged'.
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The legistlation is pout of my usual areas and employment law is notoriously fickle and changes often. I never offer legal advice on line..it may be worth going to a CAB, your conditions of service sound pretty Dickensian, also find a copy of your Contract of Employment and have a look at the small print. Keep your pecker up !
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Yup, I was considering popping along to the CAB anyway as they should know where to look if no-one on here could point me in the right direction sooner. I do agree that the conditions aren't exactly employee-friendly, and I must confess I'm rather surprised the company is allowed to impose a global change in conditions as they recently did, supposedly in an attempt to unify the terms everyone was on.
I do have one thing to take heart about though - at least I get things like a pension and sick scheme - the shop floor workers are denied even these, or have strict restrictions placed on them.
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Hi Steve,
Firstly my condolences for your gran.
Also, I may be able to help, as I have a reasonable working knowledge of best HR practise, from a TU point of view.
It sounds like you may be subject to unfair treatment here.
I would certainly agree with Mark that legal action is not appropriate at this stage. However, the employer should have a recognised grievence procedure.
Mark - your 'Radar Screen' comment, whilst potentially valid, is not the real issue here. The real issue is that Steve must be treated fairly by his employer, they have a LEGAL duty to ensure this - whatever his history. This is the position he must adopt. DUTy OF CARE
Steve's posts and threads have always struck me as articulate and well thought out - we're dealing with an intelligent chap here, who has a lot to offer an employer that treats him fairly.
Steve - you have a grievence with the way your company has treated you.
I can talk you through your options over the phone if you like. However, to summarise I suggest you do the following preparation.
REMAIN CALM AT ALL TIMES - imagine you are addressing this problem for someone else such as a fellow team member.
Seek a written statement of your grievence procedure. You should have this in writing. A memo to your HR MANAGER - not underling should ask for this in writing if this is not in the public domain - keep a hard copy of any e mails asking for this or otherwise connected with this issue.
This will detail a structured approach towards you and the company working together to resolve your grievence, starting from a basic hearing between you and your boss or bosses boss, and may escalate in a controlled fashion to you and a friend and two members of management, culminating in the involvement of the HR or Managing Director and you plus friend.
If you are not a member of the union, this should entitle you to be accompanied by a colleague of your choice during hearings CHOOSE WISELY!
Provided you give this procedure every chance to resolve the issue, you should be seen as willing to sit down and discuss the problems. Even if at times you're not making progress stick with it.
Steve, I'll get my mobile no to you somehow or other. If you call me after 6 from a UK land line, I can call you straight back - My mobile has free off peak mins to be used up.
Mark - I may ask for your help here again - please!!
****Signature? - Ideas on a postcard please anyone!****
****We never stop learning****
Hugo
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Steve - nothing useful to offer at all, I'm sorry, but please accept my heartfelt condolences.
As Mark said above, stress *can* become an illness, and I really do agree with those who say you should see your doctor as soon as you can. Don't leave it until things become even worse than they are already. Please.
HF
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Steve, I couldn't be so insensitive as not to reply, even though all I have to add is my sympathy for your loss.
I don't know any of the history talked about with your current employer, but it sounds pretty much like they operate the one rule for them, and one rule for us kind of procedure there?
I just hope you manage to get through the dark days and sort things out for the future. I'm sure things will turn out right in the end, you just need to be able to work through it all. Others here have given you far more practical advice than I could.
Good luck for the future.
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Re Steve's employers:
I think Mark has summed up the position very well. I had not dared put those views in print as I did wish to appear insensitive. We do not know the Employer's views or the reasons behind them.
However from Steve's comments about the Employers attitude, I would guess that the Employer is likely to take unkindly to any action Steve takes in pursuit of his Legal rights.
So in the end it is for Steve to judge whether he wishes to
1. challenge an unfriendly Employer with the consequent stress and possible unfair dismissal
2. remain quiet and get on with the job without drawing any further attention to himself
3. in addition to 2, seek out other employment in the meantime.
I think it is advisable for Steve to re-read Mark's reply and his meaning word by word; especially
>>>".... Was it me, I would regard my career there as done and find somewhere else to be pdq before I needed to take any legal action and/or argument about references and/or discussion about terms on which you would leave might begin. I suspect that you will be facing that at some point.
Also, was it me, I'd be trying to work out what, if anything, I did wrong or unwisely to get myself into this situation.
You seem to be frequently the object of mistreatment from that company or people within it. You really need to sit down and objectively consider why that might be.....">>>>
I do not have any further comments to add.
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Steve, I've come to this discussion late, and can add little but my condolences.
Look after yourself.
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eMBe
OK, I agree with the wording in Mark's reply. However, effective use of the Grievence procedure should get some of these issues out in the open. After all the procedure is a structured means of exploring the issues after all.
If it turns out that the employer has issues around Steve as well then this is the chance for Steve to hear and answer them and put them to bed so that they are no longer considered a part of him. By taking this to formal grievence then this removes the company's ability to continue to 'lable' him if that's what their doing. Failure for his boss to discuss any issues at this stage, then raise them later will not be looked upon favorably by their seniors - trust me!
Essentially, Steve has become disenchanted by his employer. You're right, we don't know how the employer feels about Steve, nor does he. An open and fair discussion should raise the lid on this. There may be things that Steve does not want to hear but this would be how he is viewed - not necessarily the true picture, but it's perceptions that count. He will at least know what he is up against.
Steve can then put these into context and agree with his boss actions to remidy these. In addition, the employer should also listen and take action in the areas that Steve perceives that he is being mistreated.
At least if he takes your 3rd option on board and looks for another job, he is likely to know where it didn't work before, even if it is just down to personality clashes.
In the company I used to work for there were a number of people, who simply did not get on with their supervisers, and their careers suffered as a result. Very often you could not fault their enthusiasm and abilities, but the minor faults that they had would be magnified beyond reason by their team leaders purely because their team leaders could not effectivly develop them.
In other cases, individuals who really needed more training got stuck into a rut because they were seen as lazy. In reality they were not capable of doing the job BECAUSE of their lack of training. The potential was there and the company were able to give them that training. However the Team Leaders were not able to realise what the real issues were.
****Signature? - Ideas on a postcard please anyone!****
****We never stop learning****
Hugo
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Again thanks to all that have replied. A quick update before I answer some of the points raised. I managed to get an appointment today to see the doctor and as soon as she heard the full story (possibily influenced by me practically breaking down infront of her) she gave me sick notes to cover the time I had already been off and a further 10 days to get myself sorted out, so hopefully this will resolve the immediate problem.
As for the various issues within the company I think it is mainly down to personalities. Both my immediate boss and the MD have praised the work I do on many occasions and I have no reason to believe they have any problem with me. However, the MD is the sort of person who does not like to get involved in situations to do with the workforce, leaving this to others and unfortunately those others tend to be very heavy-handed in their application of the rules. Naturally, the MD also takes the side of his daughter no matter how wrong it is so in short unless you are in the right circles or are sufficiently senior that you cannot be dictated to you tend to come off worst in these sort of situations.
In the past I have been happy to trade off these disadvantages against the facts that in the main the company is easy-going and I am allowed to get on with my job without too much interference. However, in recent times the application of the rules has been more obviously biassed and it really is getting to the point where I do not feel I can stay there much longer. The fact that I am not even getting support from the direct manager (who advised me to just accept I wasn't going to win and take the time as holiday and also refuses to directly take issue with the MD's daughter over the harrassment issue) makes it a fairly easy decision to look elsewhere. Trying to 'disappear off the radar' isn't going to work as that is what I have been doing for the last year or so yet matters have not improved. I think that basically, the problem is bosses that aren't prepared to assert their authority.
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Hugo -
Nice reply. About the only thing I would add is that following the process you are suggesting, whilst valuable and learning, frequently does not solve anything and can make a current position untenable, or at least unpleasant enough to be so.
I think, if I was Steve, I'd probably do both; Start gearing up for the job market AND follow the grievance procedure.
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