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Kwik Fit have a "no fix no fee" policy for aircon.
Edited by Old Navy on 10/06/2009 at 17:41
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Sounds a no brainer to me. I think the air-con on my 57 plate Mazda6 isn't as cold as it used to be either. It will be serviced very soon though.
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>> When air-con stopped working on my Passat >>
Mine's working and blowing cold air - it's just not as cold as I remember when we bought the car. certainly it's not as cold as in my Mazda, in which you can get numb fingers if it's set to 15c !
I'm really just asking if it's true that the system can lose 10% each year - or is any deterioration in performance necessarily an actual fault?
thanks Jacks
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Absolutely no problem when I used them for a Honda Accord. The computer does all the hard work anyway, and checks for an obvious pressure drop from a leak.
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Possibly can lose 10% a year, but, in my limited experience they don't seem to. Had my Primera regassed at about 7 years, did'nt make a discernible difference. Wifes Almera 10 years old, aircon still more than adequate.
Edited by maximus on 10/06/2009 at 17:55
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As mentioned above, they should check the system for leaks before they regas. I had the aircon in my wife's Ford Ka regassed at 5 years as it had stopped blowing cold air and it turned out only to need a tiny amount of gas.
To answer the question about leaks, the weak link in car aircon systems is usually the compressor as it is difficult to seal the drive shaft. Even so I don't believe 10% coolant loss in a year is normal.
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My climate control on the Passat was "working" but not blowing cold air. There was a problem with the compressor.
My Mazda6 blows cold air but not as cold as I remember and only with me from new for 20 months... but probably built earlier in 2007.
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I have just re-charged my A4 after 7 years with a can of gas from Halfords. £17 later and I have freezing cold climate control again!
Took 5 minutes and is as simple as blowing up a tyre! It also says on the tin that it seals leaks - we will have to wait and see on that front but if it lasts a few years for £17 then I am happy!!
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It also says on the tin that it seals leaks
Nasty stuff.
If you ever have the system worked on by an AC technician, please have the good grace to tell them that you've polluted your system with gloop.
I hope the F gas regulations will put a stop to this.
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I had mine done last week in the hot weather, it was no longer cutting the mustard. I went to a local refrigerated vehicle outfit and he charged me £30. He said if you go to KwikFit etc... they don't really understand what they're doing and just know how to operate a dumbed down foolproof machine. He said he could do it more quickly and cheaply because he didn't have to empty the system as he was experienced enough to be able to tell what needed to put in it. He used a big gas bottle with two hoses and gauges. The gauges must have showed high and low, he explained how the left one was fluctuating because it was low on refridgerant, and he even knew when the second stage of the fan was about to start by the reading creeping up on the high gauge. I was really impressed, took 10 mins and was ICE cold afterwards. He said come back every year if I don't think it's so cold and he won't charge if it doesn't need topping up.
BTW, it was only redone 2-3 years ago for £70 elsewhere and was only about 25% low but it made much more than 25% difference.
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"He said he could do it more quickly and cheaply because he didn't have to empty the system as he was experienced enough to be able to tell what needed to put in it. "
Sound like rubbish to me. You have to evacuate the whole system to remove potential contaminants like water. Topping it up seems the lazy way to do it. I had my Passat done at Kwikfit a year or so ago and it did make it run cooler.
What's wrong with operating a foolproof machine? That's the way I'd rather have it done!
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A previous thread on this subject:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=65217&...f
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It sounds like it needs a regas, 6 years is a long time in air con time, however, regas times vary from system to system.
My 05 Ford Focus air con regas was done the other week, it cost a similar price to what Kwik-Fit charge, now it blows cold air within seconds of being switched on.
A complete system empty & regas and is better than a top-up as you then know the whole system is running with the same type of gas inside it and there is none of the old tired stuff circulating inside the air con system.
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none of the old tired stuff
How does gas get tired?
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"How does gas get tired?"
Perhaps having to work under pressure gets to it?
Edited by oldnotbold on 11/06/2009 at 10:58
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"How does gas get tired?" Perhaps having to work under pressure gets to it?
*Sniggers*
Excellent!
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>>How does gas get tired?
I think the clue, NC, is in the whole sentence by MT:
A complete system empty & regas and is better than a top-up as you then know the whole system is running with the same type of gas inside it and there is none of the old tired stuff circulating inside the air con system.
That is, it precludes the possibility of different refrigerants & nefarious contaminants - at least that's my humble layman's interpretation. The same way you might have 'tired' engine oil or 'stale' air in the car. I think the english language is rather wonderful in that way!
Incidentally, I've booked a Nationwide AutoCentre air-con service this afternoon (£69inc.) - & will probably post back the consumer report when done - it may be of use to the OP & others.
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The only likely contaminants are sealing gloop in aerosols - if the air con has kept at least some gas pressure in it, then all the leak is from the inside to the outside, and no contaminants can get in.
The only way for the wrong gas to get in there is for some fool to put it in in the first place. Left to its own devices and with only proper care, AC gas does not get tired - it just leaks away.
The big unknown, the factor most guessed at is how much PAG oil to put back into the system. The recovery process, however you do it short of completely dismantling and flushing the system, doesn't get all the old oil out.
In the light of this, providing there are no obvious leaks, I have nothing against a top up with the correct gas, and some sensible guess top up of PAG oil at the same time. As long as no air is introduced into the system during the process.
Oddly enough, I think it becomes a more attractive option still if someone has used sealing gloop, because in recovering it, you're only going to ruin your recovery pump, or block the filters with the stuff, where you don't run that risk if you just top up. IMO, it's the pragmatic approach.
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I've seen comments elsewhere saying that these services are useless unless the receiver/dryer is changed.
I'm not sure what that does (dries out the gas?) and I don't think I've seen changing it mentioned in any of the special a/c services that you see advertised.
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>>these services are useless unless the receiver/dryer is changed.
The dryer removes moisture from the system - once in use, and the dryer has absorbed any moisture trapped in, then, there shouldn't be any more moisture getting in.
However, if you find that the AC system has no gas left in it, atmospheric air will have got in, and will have saturated the dessicant in the dryer. Hence, in those situations, you must fit a new dryer.
The moisture has two bad efects if not held in dessicant - it reduces the efficiency of the system, and it can react with the refrigerant to form an acid which corrodes the AC system from the inside.
If, however, the system still has some reasonable pressure in it, the dryer will still be OK, and a regas or top-up alone will be OK.
For this reason, if you work on an AC system, you should seal the dryer off quickly to avoid saturation, or just renew it, leaving the seals on the new one until the last minute. Of course any disconnected AC pipe should be sealed as soon as it is disconnected to avoid contamination.
After working on the system, and after a leak test using Nitrogen, the system should be placed under a hard vacuum to boil off any remaining moisture before charging. To do this, I hold a known leak-tight system below 400 microns of mercury for about an hour before re-filling.
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The same gas that is pumped out is mixed with other people's and put back in anyway. I doubt ANY lubricant is removed in this process. It is a liquid which will drain to the lowest part of the system, but I stand being corrected. I took apart my old aircondtioning on my house and the lubricant was like brake fluid and smelled of Victory-Vs. There isn't much of it.
Edited by Hamsafar on 11/06/2009 at 12:46
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>>I doubt ANY lubricant is removed in this process.
With R134a, the PAG oil is dissolved in the refrigerant, and so, during the liquid recovery phase, some PAG oil is usually removed from the system. When the liquid has been removed from the system, the recovery pump will then continue to remove the vapour and then the vacuum will begin to develop.
The recovery machine should seperate and weigh this recovered oil, and replace the same amount of new oil with the new refrigerant charge. This sounds good, but it doesn't account for the oil lost with the leaking refrigerant.
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A previous thread on this subject: www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=65217&...f
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Based on the info supplied in the above thread that described the KwikFit process I'll think I'll take a chance and use them - based on the fact that they only do a simple recover and regas & won't be looking to find work by replacing parts of the system.
thanks to those who replied
J
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We used the Kwik-fit service on our old avensis last year. Done and dusted in about 20 mins, ice cold. I thought it was good.
BW,
Alex.
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I had my aircon regas with the local honda dealer, for £50 which was money well spent, they wanted £60 but i managed to haggle it down, the dealers do price match tho and its recommended to regas your a/c every 2-3 years as you lose gas every year about 10 percent, it made a lot of difference having it regased as the ac was blowing cold after a few minutes.
I never take it down to kwikfit, tho, as they could also make up additional work whilst you got your aircon recharged
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I've used it in March this year and now, possibly, regret doing so. Now I'm not blaming anyone but merely relating the facts.
Initially the efficiency of the air con noticeably improved and all was well for the first few weeks. Then, on the warmer days, cold air wasn't being produced as efficiently and cycling of the compressor was noticeable. In the last couple of weeks, the air con has deteriorated to the point at which no cold air is being produced. However, the compressor still tries to run, and when it does, if the engine is idling, the engine almost stalls. So something isn't right.
This morning I went back to Kwik Fit who, as expected pointed out that the mechanical componenets of the air con system will fail at some point. This I don't dispute. They also pointed out that their process is completely automated and there is no intervention they can make to the process. I asked them to connect up their machine to check the pressures i.e. to check if there had been a serious loss of refrigerant. When the car was hooked up, one of their fitters looked at the pressure gauges and immediatly said "oh, that's not right" but wouldn't say why it wasn't right. They agreed to run the recharging process again. When all the refrigerant had been extracted, the fitter showed me the lubricating oil which had been extracted and seperated from the gas. The oil was discoloured and had metal particles in it.
End of factual statement, now the pondering begins.
It could just be that some mechanical component has reached the end of its life and its failure has coincided with the recharge. This is obviously what Kwik Fit will claim, and frankly, without a lot of expensive investigation, I can't see how you can prove otherwise.
However, a brief trawl via Google has come up with one description of the process involved in relubricating the air con system after it has been evacuated. There is a warning given that it is possible to starve the compressor of lubricant, thereby contributing to eventual mechanical failure.
The car is due to go in for a (dealer) service on Monday. I'm bracing myself - doubt if there'll be much change from £500 for getting the air con working again!!!
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Just a little road-test report on my Nationwide AutoCentre air-con service (£69inc. 'reduced' on special offer from the standard charge of £102 inc.) I had done a week or so ago.
Overall, it seems to have worked - nice cold air coming out. However, initially it didn't work & I took it back to the chap in the above to query it. He said it might take a short while running it over a couple of days to get up to full efficiency - he slightly baffled me with gobbledy-gook (sp?) over this, but I decided to go along anyway & see how things turned out.
Well, it did start working OK after a couple of days & seems (as as I can remember anyway..) back to normal. I'll monitor it over the coming weeks & return if it deteriorates in that time.
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Had Kwik Fit recharge the aircon on our old Grand Scenic last summer. My £45 turned useless air-con into icy cold air-con, which was still icy cold when we sold the car earlier this year. Stapled to the invoice was a comprehensive report listing system pressures, weights recovered, weights added, vent temps etc on a before and after basis.
Would use them again. No complaints at all.
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