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Speed detectors - Dwight Van Driver
Strange no body has mentioned it before (AFAIR) but HMG are planning to make the use of speed detectors in private motor cars to escape being caught illegal. £60 and 3 points FPN or £1000 and 3 - 6 points at a Magistrates Court.
Consultation period is over and draft legislation has been made.
Its all at:
www.roads.dft.gov.uk
Open Consultation papers
down to Archive Papers to Draft Statutory Instrument Speed Enforcement Detectors.
So those of you planning to lay out 2-300 quid on one be aware.

DVD.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Armitage Shanks{P}
Sorry but what is a 'speed detector'? A speedometer as fitted by law to all cars? Speed camera/radar detectors are not illegal (yet) and I don't see how they can ban a GPS which just happens to know where the cameras are.
Morpheous - terryb
Any other Geodesy owners out there notice their boxes having trouble locking onto (and staying locked onto) enough satellites during these stormy mornings? Yesterday and today mine has been flashing between blue and red quicker than...well, let's say quite often :o)

Must be a scientific explanation.
Terry
Morpheous - Armitage Shanks{P}
GPS is a very weak signal and is easily blanked out by storms, cloud and rain etc. It is the same with your Sky dish, if you have been watching this week.
Morpheous - terryb
Armitage
Thanks.
Not got Sky but NTL managed to lose all service to my house yesterday morning, TV, phone, radio....
Fair play though, 15 minutes paying for an 0800 number on the mobile to get through to the engineers and it was fixed within the hour. Massive power surge in the area evidently.
Terry
Terry
Morpheous - Flat in Fifth
And can also be blanked out by such as heated windscreen elements which is why its better to have an external aerial for GPS devices.
Morpheous - Armitage Shanks{P}
Who will pay for external aerials when Tony Bliar and his lot make us all have GPSs fitted for journey logging and road pricing? It will have to be external as a dash mounted GPS can be disabled by a small piece of aluminium foil wrapped round the internal aerial housing. This is one innovation I don't think we are ever going to see! (GPS tracking that is, not foil!)
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Thommo
Had to happen. The taxmen, sorry, police, always thought these devices were illegal until someone took them to court to prove otherwise. Only covers recieving equipment though so GPS locator style machines are still OK.

If you have one of these your only worry now is mobile speed traps. Increasing as the taxman now employ civilians to operate the cameras and process the paper work.

In about 2 years time don't be surprised to see this operation franchised, as parking is now. Good news for those who have the balls to object as private operations will not pursue 'uneconomic' cases.

Speed detectors - unlawful? - Thommo
Loo,

They can ban the GPS systems whenever they like, they are the Government, they just have not got round to it yet and this new legislation does not cover them.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Armitage Shanks{P}
I just read about a new version of Morpheous or one of the others which now detects the radar signals from mobile units and sends locations of them to your in car unit - something over £700 I think.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Armitage Shanks{P}
See the link dated 23rd July, just to the right of this thread!
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Toad, of Toad Hall.
What's their logic for this?

You can't evade the law with a detector, a detector simply tells you to obey the law.

I use my eyes and brain (such as it is) to avoid cameras and speed traps. Will taht be made illegal? Are we on the verge of a law that *compels* you to speed through cameras?



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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Armitage Shanks{P}
We should not break the law, that seems fair. How is it then that motorists who have flashed their headlights at others, to warn them of a speed trap, have been charged with obstructing the police 'in the course of their duty'? If I stop someone from committing a crime I expect a bit of thanks, not a load of rubbish from Plod-U-Like!!
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Toad, of Toad Hall.
We should not break the law, that seems fair. How
is it then that motorists who have flashed their headlights at
others, to warn them of a speed trap, have been charged
with obstructing the police 'in the course of their duty'?


A rozzer has told me such a conviction is not possible. Are you sure of your facts?

(Not disputing it - jsut want confirmation!)
If I stop someone from committing a crime I expect
a bit of thanks, not a load of rubbish from Plod-U-Like!!


Amen!!!

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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Dwight Van Driver
Bufonidae of Bufonidae Palace
(Tof TH to you commoners)

Yes and No.
A person who simply gave drivers of motor cars notice of a 'police trap' was held not guilty of obstruction
(Bastable v Little (1907))

Obstruction is not limited to physical obstruction, so where cars were warned of a police trap are being driven at an illegal speed, the person so warning may be convicted of obstructing the Police.
(Betts v Stevens (1910))

DVD
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Bufonidae of Bufonidae Palace


For very good reasons us Toads do *not* like the French!
(Bastable v Little (1907))
(Betts v Stevens (1910))


Two issues:
1) Can I assume that in practice you'd never be done?
2) Swat!



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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Dwight Van Driver
TofTH

These come from the day of the lurking plod in the hedgeback
with flag. Further down another Plod in the hedgeback,at a pre measured distance with stopwatch. At long stop Plod 3.
No 1 flagged 2 when likely revenue passed at which signal 2 started the stopwatch and stopped it as car passed. Plod 3 had the dubious job further down the road to stop if Plod 2 indicated a hit. (and you think Speed cameras complicated).
People who merely warned that plod was operating could not be done for obstruction. However those in vehicles flashing at likely speeders could be done.

Progress came and in the early 60's we got PETA (Portable Electronic Traffic Analyser - Radar). This was a b***** great heavy box we had to lug to sites and set up at the road side with beam approx 45deg across the road. But first using stop watch and measured mile we tested the calibrated speedo of the patrol car at 30 and 60mph. Box set up on site and patrol car run through at 30 and 60 to confirm set working and again at various times during the check recording time. Not content with that half a mile before the check point we had to put up a bl..dy great blackboard which proclaimed "Speed Check Ahead".
Yes you have guessed it - they still came through above the particular speed limit.
Book full we departed but before hand ran the patrol car through the beam, collected the sign, back to the measured mile with the stop watch to confirm everything was correct.
If fault detected then all those reported since last time known correct were sent a letter with the good news. NO prosecution.

DVD
P.S. The stop watch sent away every so often to ensure it was accurate.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Toad, of Toad Hall.
TofTH
These come from the day of the lurking plod in the
hedgeback
with flag. Further down another Plod in the hedgeback,at a pre
measured distance with stopwatch. At long stop Plod 3.
No 1 flagged 2 when likely revenue passed at which signal
2 started the stopwatch and stopped it as car passed. Plod
3 had the dubious job further down the road to stop
if Plod 2 indicated a hit. (and you think Speed cameras
complicated).
People who merely warned that plod was operating could not be
done for obstruction. However those in vehicles flashing at likely
speeders could be done.


Interesting. There's a poem by Kipling that mentions "Dogberry and Waterbury", Dogberry being the 'policeman' in much ado about nothing and Waterbury being a type of watch. Different age.
Progress came and in the early 60's we got PETA (Portable
Electronic Traffic Analyser - Radar). This was a b***** great heavy
box we had to lug to sites and set up at
the road side with beam approx 45deg across the road. But
first using stop watch and measured mile we tested the calibrated
speedo of the patrol car at 30 and 60mph. Box set
up on site and patrol car run through at 30 and
60 to confirm set working and again at various times during
the check recording time. Not content with that half a mile
before the check point we had to put up a bl..dy
great blackboard which proclaimed "Speed Check Ahead".
Yes you have guessed it - they still came through above
the particular speed limit.
Book full we departed but before hand ran the patrol car
through the beam, collected the sign, back to the measured mile
with the stop watch to confirm everything was correct.
If fault detected then all those reported since last time known
correct were sent a letter with the good news. NO prosecution.


Blackboard with speed check ahead - great idea. Incredible that poeple ignored it...


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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Flat in Fifth
Nice one DVD, presumably the blackboard would now be classed as a....

b) any device or apparatus designed, adapted or intended to be used in order to avoid the detection by or to frustrate the operation of a camera or any other apparatus designed or adapted for the detection of speed of any motor vehicle.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - M.M
>Will taht be made illegal?

If they do that what's left for you on a Saturday night then Toad.....staying in and dressing up as Claire from Steps??

Don't worry, my lips are sealed beyond that!

;-)



David W
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Toad, of Toad Hall.
DW - I *knew* you had Secret Service links!

Hope you checked JC's daughter out while you were there!

--
Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - M.M
Well not quite the SS but an effective user of the Internet, and then sometimes you get dead lucky while looking for something else....and I did.

I was *so* sure I knew the profile style.....so I took a chance and it came up.

Was *the girl* into a band then?


David W
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Well not quite the SS but an effective user of the
Internet, and then sometimes you get dead lucky while looking for
something else....and I did.
I was *so* sure I knew the profile style.....so I took
a chance and it came up.


No sweat! I think I can trust you to take my dark secret to the grave. Bear in mind that Dave & Toads' views are not always M's, and are usually an exagerated parody.
Was *the girl* into a band then?


Unless that's far too cryptic for me to work out then not that I know off. Choirs possibly, certainly plays piano (well).

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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - M.M
Toad,

No problems, bear in mind I *get* the Parp Parp.

Bet the piano was what she commented on as still doing some music, that's all.


David W
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Flat in Fifth
Interesting wording in the legislation. Worth discussing I think.

(a) any device or apparatus designed, adapted or intended to be used for the detection of the presence of a camera or any other apparatus designed or dapted for the detection or measurement of speed of any motor vehicle; or

(b) any device or apparatus designed, adapted or intended to be used in order to avoid the detection by or to frustrate the operation of a camera or any other apparatus designed or adapted for the detection of speed of any motor vehicle.

So it appears my carefully controlled Size 10 right Doc Marten has been legislated into being a desperado!

But surely this also outlaws the Morpheus and its ilk being devices intended to......

What will they make compulsory next? Toad! Toad! down boy!
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Interesting wording in the legislation. Worth discussing I think.

(a) any device or apparatus designed, adapted or intended to be
used for the detection of the presence of a camera or
any other apparatus designed or dapted for the detection or measurement
of speed of any motor vehicle; or
(b) any device or apparatus designed, adapted or intended to be
used in order to avoid the detection by or to frustrate
the operation of a camera or any other apparatus designed or
adapted for the detection of speed of any motor vehicle.


I am able to look through my windscreen to detect the presence of cameras.

So the windscreen is a device to frustrate speed cameras.

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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Armitage Shanks{P}
A GPS does not 'detect' a camera, the database knows where the cameras are and where the receiver is and tells you when the receiver location is near a camera location. This is not detection but reporting, in my opinion, however I am sure the legal minds will put me right here! On this basis the new Morpheous would appear to be illegal but how can anyone tell what features you have in yours?

A 'device designed or adapted to be used for the detection etc'could be a printed list or a road map with locations marked, and thus be illegal, or could it? Add to the list which now included TOTH's right foot and windscreen!
Speed detectors - unlawful? - BrianW
OK, the gloves are off.

The cameras must go, by whatever means it takes.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - terryb
Hey guys, look at the dates on these drafts and the timetable for implementation.

Looks like it failed to get through - lost due to the election maybe?

Terry
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Flat in Fifth
it certainly does not appear to be in online statutory instruments in HMSO, so maybe not valid, or should that be not valid yet??

regardless, to me the wording seems stupid.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Toad, of Toad Hall.
regardless, to me the wording seems stupid.


You shuold have seen the proposed hunting legislation.

It didn't allow yuo to hunt but did a allow you to take a dogs out and let them chase & kill animals.

We are led by morons.



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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Mark (RLBS)
>>We are led by.......

From pure pedantry I have to point that it would be more appropriate to say "we are following....." since there doesn't seem to be a whole bunch of leading going on.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Flat in Fifth
"We are led by morons."

Sorry Toad I've previously had to take Bogush to task over the use of the word morons to describe HM Government.

Moron infers (implies?) a mental age of ~12.

SWTSMBO (Jnr edn) [1] aged 12 has more common sense than this lot.

[1] She Who Thinks She Must Be Obeyed ie not yet graduated, death ray stare only up to stun level allowed in public ;-)
Speed detectors - unlawful? - BrianW
"SWTSMBO (Jnr edn) [1] aged 12 has more common sense than this lot."

She might have the brains, but they have the power, and that's what counts.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Flat in Fifth
Spot on as usual Brian.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - THe Growler
Now the mind control brigade have thoroughly tipped their hand. Instead of approving a gadget that might encourage better driving in areas where speeding is hazardous, it is banned. Surely this could not be because of the the potential for lost revenue? Plus of course outwitting the speed nazis.

In my trips to Florida the good friends we visit twice a year has a couple of Ford Expeditions, both are fitted with speed detector jamming devices. He claims they are common in America, that they work and he has never gotten a ticket. Sounds like a good idea to me. There's a website somewhere I'll try and find it again.

Nice to cruise along in the sun, ZZ Top blasting away on the sound system, a 12 oz Coors in the cup holder and 3 guns ranged in a rack along the back window.....

Holiday in Britain this year! ER......no thanks........
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Now the mind control brigade have thoroughly tipped their hand. Instead
of approving a gadget that might encourage better driving in areas
where speeding is hazardous, it is banned.


It really is clearly saying that there are some cases where they *do not* want people to slow down.

If Speed Cameras were placed in high danger area surely these would be *exactly* the sort of places they would want people to slow down.

Instead they *wish* people to speed through these areas. That speaks volumes.

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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Paul Mykatz-Tinks
National press carried a story long ago that the draft legislation was found to be too full of holes to be effective, so was put aside with no date for review.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Paul Mykatz-Tinks
..........I responded to the consultation.

Got a patronising reply from the Minister strongly advising me not to buy a device, with all the usual rubbish about speed wiping out the population. He had clearly made up his mind before consultation began, and the consultation process was not publicised, so few people knew it existed.

They say they're listening to us, but they made no attempt to counter my arguments, just ignored them. As usual, a complete farce.

I used to post my thoughts along these lines on the government forum, along with many others. They couldn't take the heat and "improved" it, thereby making it too cumbersome to use. Cowards!
Speed detectors - unlawful? - THe Growler
Look what I got Nanny, a speed detector! It will tell me where all those speed detection thingies are so I can slow down before I get to dangerous places on the road.

You mustn't have one of those! Where did you get that? Give it to me at once!

But, Nanny, surely if it makes me drive more carefully it'll contribute to road safety?

Road safety? I don't know about road safety, but it'll mess up the nice government's plans to catch more speeders. How can they do that if drivers find ways of slowing down before they're caught?

Why Nanny?

Well, because you see the government has made these numbers up and told everyone they're true. Now if they don't catch enough speeders they won't meet their targets and nobody will believe them. That's why they put all those gadgets there, so they can prove the point they're trying to make.

I don't understand Nanny.

You will when you're old enough dear and you have a government job earning lots of money and all those people out there are making you justify it and calling you rude things. Besides how would the nice government pay all those nice policemen to protect you if they didn't catch enough people speeding and make enough money in fines? You see if they have machines to do it, the machines can collect money and the policepeople will have more time to go after other dangerous people and make even more money.

Oh, you mean like burglars and muggers and stuff.

Well, not really, there isn't much money in catching those, but I mean really dangerous ones, like those who pick their noses and scratch themselves and eat Doritos while they're driving.

Nanny, it seems the police are always going after people in cars. Even if they try to be good, like me with my speed detector.

Of course dear, people in cars are bad. They have to be restricted for their own good and everybody else's.

Why, Nanny?

Well, dear, they have too much freedom, and if they have too much of that it's difficult for the state to control them.

Why does the state want to control them?

Now, now, dear, don't be difficult.

So I can't have my detector back?

No, dear, whatever would happen if everyone had one of these? Goodness! What would they do with all those cameras and radar things? Where would the money come from? How would the government keep track of you if it didn't have all those photos showing when and where you were?

Nanny, is this just about catching speeders or is the guv'ment trying to do something else?

Shhhh, dear, don't ask so many questions, it's not nice. Come on now, it's time for bed.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - THe Growler
Look what I got Nanny, a speed detector! It will tell me where all those speed detection thingies are so I can slow down before I get to dangerous places on the road.

You mustn't have one of those! Where did you get that? Give it to me at once!

But, Nanny, surely if it makes me drive more carefully it'll contribute to road safety?

Road safety? I don't know about road safety, but it'll mess up the nice government's plans to catch more speeders. How can they do that if drivers find ways of slowing down before they're caught?

Why Nanny?

Well, because you see the government has made these numbers up and told everyone they're true. Now if they don't catch enough speeders they won't meet their targets and nobody will believe them. That's why they put all those gadgets there, so they can prove the point they're trying to make.

I don't understand Nanny.

You will when you're old enough dear and you have a government job earning lots of money and all those people out there are making you justify it and calling you rude things. Besides how would the nice government pay all those nice policemen to protect you if they didn't catch enough people speeding and make enough money in fines? You see if they have machines to do it, the machines can collect money and the policepeople will have more time to go after other dangerous people and make even more money.

Oh, you mean like burglars and muggers and stuff.

Well, not really, there isn't much money in catching those, but I mean really dangerous ones, like those who pick their noses and scratch themselves and eat Doritos while they're driving.

Nanny, it seems the police are always going after people in cars. Even if they try to be good, like me with my speed detector.

Of course dear, people in cars are bad. They have to be restricted for their own good and everybody else's.

Why, Nanny?

Well, dear, they have too much freedom, and if they have too much of that it's difficult for the state to control them.

Why does the state want to control them?

Now, now, dear, don't be difficult.

So I can't have my detector back?

No, dear, whatever would happen if everyone had one of these? Goodness! What would they do with all those cameras and radar things? Where would the money come from? How would the government keep track of you if it didn't have all those photos showing when and where you were?

Nanny, is this just about catching speeders or is the guv'ment trying to do something else?

Shhhh, dear, don't ask so many questions, it's not nice. Come on now, it's time for bed.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - dan
"Nanny, is this just about catching speeders or is the guv'ment trying to do something else?"

Don't stop there... what is the guv'ment ultimately trying to acheive?
What does Grandad think about it all?

Personally l see the crusade against driving as nothing more than Machivellian attention diversion from the far more complex and greater problems of public transport and planning.
The car is a sacrificial lamb that lays golden NIPs.

hmm kinky
dan

Speed detectors - unlawful? - Toad, of Toad Hall.
Time and time again we see the goverment cynically taxing the things they can claim should be discouraged, Fags & Petrol chief amongst them.

NIP's are just another tax they can justify on safety grounds. We're moving from a progressive system of taxation to a regressive one. (Which is good for some of us...)

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Parp, Parp!
Note: All Toad posts come with an implied smiley.
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Flat in Fifth
"Time and time again we see the goverment cynically taxing the things they can claim should be discouraged, Fags & Petrol chief amongst them."

Look what happened with alcohol in Scandinavia.

I remember paying £17 (late 80's) for two halves of c***py beer and a single "cheap" blended whisky.

There were no pubs, well hardly any.

It didn't stop alcoholism being a serious problem.

Now prices have come down, at least to a UK level, which is not saying much admittedly. There are pubs, easy to drink at restaurants all day etc. Much more civilised and I think the drink problem is definitely less.

------
Note I don't have a drink problem.
I drink , I fall down...no problem. ;-)
Speed detectors - unlawful? - Flat in Fifth
I seem to remember a trip years ago in the USA with a local who had an old television zapper or something similar (I forget exactly). This emitted radiation which triggered off some radar detectors. The gonk used to amuse himself by waiting till a car with detector went wassing past and then zapped it.

Seemed to me it caused more problems than enough when the unfortunate on the receiving end of the "joke" suddenly dropped the anchors.